his safe dive sets up absolutely nothing. o.hawk has the same normals as R.hawk (where you think they got those from?). his safe dive is like a huge joke. it helps in the match against sim and like thats it. maybe rog but youd rarely dive against him in the first place. what does it set up? WOAH YOU CAN JUMP AND DO ANOTHER ONE RIGHT AWAY! and if it hits…? oh you’re in the same spot you were before. walk up 360 isnt good after it because people flinch when hawk starts walking close. dp after isnt good either because hawks dp has trouble hitting anything but long standing pokes from that range. you could still argue hawk is one dimensional since all he wants to do is get in and throw.
i hope that poor hawk player remark wasnt to me since you’ve never played me online or off so it doesnt hold much weight
SBO '08 Handbook had him at a tier above N. Ken, and I have to agree. Knee bash and crazy kick shenanigans are just that: shenanigans. cr. lk x2->super is a good threat to have, but better fb and much better uppercut are not just situational tools and, to me, make O. Ken a better char.
What is his ‘versatility’ that you speak of? Is it the nerfed dive or the throw whiff animation?
His ‘better’ normals are the same as O.Hawk so those normals are pretty much ‘same’ and not ‘better’ as most Hawk players favor O.Hawk compared to N.Hawk. We aren’t getting anything ‘better’ compared to O.Hawk as far as normals go.
They got rid of Hawk’s negative edge throw but Honda still has it and it’s a stored throw. Why not make it so that when Hawk lands a 360 he is pushed back further away like Honda? I would take that over the whiff animation.
They also got rid off Hawk’s knockdown dive. One of the biggest nerfs in ST:HDR. The new dive is for noobies who stupidly dove from the top of the screen and didn’t use it properly.
Yeah sounds like you’ve never played Hawk or played a good Hawk.
Getting in for that throw loop is not easy for Hawk. You can’t just walk through fireballs or jump in on opponents and start the throw loop. For some if not most of Hawk’s match-ups in ST (Guile, Honda, Sim) getting in a good opponent was extremely difficult. You need to know each match and how to set up the spacing for a throw and possibly a throw loop. This isn’t ‘one tactic’ it’s 15 different tactics for each matchup.
I love how everyone is calling R.Hawk’s dive the ‘safe’ dive.
The N.Hawk and O.Hawk dives were safe against the majority of the cast when done from the right height. And even then, if you had smart yomi, you would only dive when it would connect. And when it hit it would knock down…not leave you with no advantage whatsoever. The new dive appeals to noobs and scrubs who wanted to not be punished for diving like idiots on opponents.
Hawk’s DP still is terrible. It has no horizontal range whatsoever. Players can just sit crouching and punish whiffed DPs.
O.Hawk is superior in nearly every aspect compared to R.Hawk with the exception of the super (which Toutanki/Mayakon/Inomata/K proved didn’t matter much) and that O.Hawk can’t soften throws…but who has the balls to move in to throw O.Hawk anyways?
R.Hawk is terrible. He went from low tier to even lower.
youre right, i have never played a good hawk. you know why? cuz there are none in the US. stop fronting, cuz you guys havent played a good hawk either to make your opinion more validated than mine.
girdman: relax, i said it in a general context
ryu1999: i dunno man. o.ken fireball is barely better. and yea his dp is better, but n.ken dp is no slouch either and beats 99% of everyone’s moves anyway. yeah ken’s kneebash may be a shenanigan, but its a very strong shenanigan and really adds to his character and keeps putting the opponent into a guessing game. Plus the short short super cannot be denied. And s.rh is nice to have at times. throw softening is always a nice feature as well =)
lets be honest. would you really be using nken’s dp’s any different than o.ken? not really. Will results terribly differ? not really, except to outlast vs another invincible move. o.ken fireball is only like 1 frame better on startup, IIRC. not really a big deal i say.
Only thing that o.ken has a true advantage over n.ken is that he is way more accessible to use. n.ken will get you more mileage tho. IMO. I will say tho, if you just like zoning, no doubt that o.ken is the better choice. Otherwise, if you play a more aggressive style, n.ken by far. and zoning is still good with n.ken.
Getting beat out by generic crossups/crossover air hks/gief splash/Chun neckbreaker/walldive shenanigans is a big reason I’ll take Old shotos over New any day of the week. (Except for I’d definitely take N. Ryu for the Guile/Dhalsim matches.)
1f does make a difference as its a ~10% difference in startup ;-). Certainly enough for people to complain about Akuma’s FB being better than Ryus even though they too are only separated by 1f in execution (regardless of the wacky hitboxes on the horsestance)
considering ive mained hawk forever and know his matchups inside and out and am actually GOOD with him, i think my opinion is a lot more validated than yours.
It’s just typical group mentality that started a while back. New versions of old games always get hated on, even when they’re way better than the original. As far as ST/HDR goes i wouldn’t say that’s the case, but the mentality has definitely carried over.
Personally i think HDR is really fun. Just gotta look at it as a slightly different game from ST, think outside the box and ask yourself “why did sirlin change sims properties?” etc. I have no idea why people are so against learning slightly new strategies for their characters when they play 95%-99% the same way they did in ST.
and thats why i see hawk in all the big tourneys placing high in the US… /sarcasm
I dont know if you are good. for all i know you can have this delusion of grandeur on being uber good with him or something.
Bottom line, I will take an opinion from a top ST pro, and/or a hawk player that can make a ruckus with hawk at a major, which im pretty sure you havent. So your opinion is still no more valid than anyone else’s IMO.
And for all I know, you could be absolutely right that o.hawk is better. But theres no proof. It’s all speculation at this point. And I speculate that r.hawk is better overall
play me. ill be glad to show you im not spewing shit out of my ass. anyone else whos played me realizes im not shooting shit out my ass. sorry i havent had the time or money to go to any majors. i actually DO plan on going to evo world and if theres an evo east this year, then that.
Chun may have gotten “worse” but her worst matchup is gone (o.sagat). No more playing super mario between fireballs is a relief. Vega has gotten easier, boxer has gotten even easier and her worst matchup (shotos) isn’t THAT bad compared to what other chars have to deal with. And among the nerfs there’s buffs too, no flipkick means easier and faster constant c.mk pressure (because mp gets beaten by very low moves) and i don’t care, i played many good people and many who i’ve lost to, too, but nobody so far has punished SBK when used properly (crossup/shenanigan reversal) because you end up on the other side way too far for anything to punish. All versions have plenty of invincibility, too.
I’d still take ST chun tho, R chun just isn’t as bad as she seems.
Besides all the other stuff people mentioned about Hawk, basically everything.
There’s still the whole thing about missing grab frames…that alone…O.Hawk > R.Hawk.
And the reason you don’t see any Tourney Hawks isn’t the skill in the U.S. SaBrE. It’s how our tournaments are set-up. Hawk has some bad counters, basically un-winnable. In the U.S. you can change character after you lose, gg counter match. Hawks not the best character out of the box we know, but to take the time to learn all the matchups gives you really no time to learn other counter characters. But countering Hawk is simple, very very simple.
Now that would be fine, most people would say “everyone has counter matches” but not as simple as:
Pick Honda, any color you like!
Stop worrying that you have never played him that much and have no clue how to fight with him.
Hold back
Jab Headbutt whenever hawk gets near you.
???
Profit.
Make tourney’s so you can’t change characters and you’ll see people start to do well with him.
That fact there is the main reason Toutanki/K were able to do what they did at X-Mania 7.
The only thing O.Ken had better than ST Ken was the Shoryuken invincibility and faster Hadoken. Like one of the posters mentioned, invincible Shoryuken is priceless vs huge crossups like Zangief and Honda’s Splash.
But Remix Ken has an invincible Shoryuken, the Strong. That, plus the easier commands for Crazy Kick, reversal Shoryu Reppa and faster Roundhouse Tatsu makes R. Ken TONS better than either ST Ken or O. Ken.
As for Hawk, it would be better to have both types of Dives. Put the knockdown Dive on Fierce+Roundhouse and Strong+Forward, and the non knockdown Dive on Jab+Short. But I agree that he should have a whiff animation on Typhoon. But Honda needs a whiff animation on the Ochio too. And the storage should be scrapped. All command throws should have whiffs, including Supers.
fake wall dive is so helpful to bait balrogs headbutts.
you cant really do the wall dive BS loop in vanilla st vs him anyways since he can headbutt out of there for free. can’t really bait his headbutt and punish since he travels so far.
but with the fake wall dive, its possible to bait his headbutts and punish accordingly.
Well I might forget to write the notation before some characters, but not Hawk since I personally think R.Hawk is retarded.
N.Hawk is miles ahead of R.Hawk when it comes down to winning matches, not playability, diversity but simply winning. I don’t see how R.Hawk can be considered as anything but a fun anecdote, about screwing up a great grappler.
Other factors as the SUPER motion bug for 720s also limit R.Hawk’s possibilities, anyone that did play him seriously in ST knows how he has become a “fun” character and is no longer the boring one-sided loop baddie.
we know, but to take the time to learn all the matchups gives you really no time to learn other counter characters. But countering Hawk is simple, very very simple.