I think it would be cool to start talking about specific matchups and what not. Players could add there 2 cents about how they think their character does against X or Y character(s)
The only way I could see K’ dropping heavily in tiers is if he lost his special cancel-able cr.B which he didn’t. It’s a huge constant with K’ when he’s top.
Top KOFXIII player Dune breaks down the characters. Has Terry at the bottom 
Being low tier doesn’t exactly mean a whole lot. If he says Terry is the lowest then every single character in the game is viable and capable of absolutely wrecking.
I think he’s just basing his stuff on how well some characters could do pull-out-of-their-ass comeback ability and that could do damage. His list is radically different from Poongko’s, and I don’t necessarily agree even half way with either of their lists (although they have more credibility than me since I’m just a nobody.)
With Dune, he’s coming from an Arcade background where you put in one coin and you have to win each time and pull consistent wins, even sometimes having to run the dirtiest of stuff to do that and had KOF XIII Arcade experience. Console XIII is almost totally different from Arcade XIII so the general game flow might not be the same. Then with Poongko, he has prior KOF experience and plays console XIII as if it were the old KOF games much like his other buds. He didn’t have experience or much of it with Arcade XIII and is interpreting tier placement from a totally different perspective. I’m viewing the game from a perspective of a guy who just built his fundamentals by learning 98 on GGPO. I can afford to lose a lot and in long sessions to figure match ups out more or grind training mode forever when I’m not playing online. So I can find certain nuances of characters that might not necessarily be found in an arcade environment until late. But, I don’t play in an optimal way where I’d consistently win in an arcade and I would either be spending a fortune in the arcade or degenerate to playing easy characters with big damage and come backs. Then there’s the fact that I still have a long way to go in learning KOF as a whole.
With that said, I still don’t agree with a few things Dune is saying. I think what he’s saying about Terry being low tier is wrong and doesn’t seem to recognize his inside space control and his high-low mix ups based off of one or two EX Crack Shoots that lead into left-right mix-ups with ambiguous roll cross-ups. He says that Kim can’t do much without meter and I guess he means damage wise because being able to do pretty much any hitconfirm into a hard knockdown that leads for a free safe-hop mix up is just way too good. If you play well, there is no reason why Kim should let up momentum and not hitting his mix-ups if his “yomi” is strong. And if he doesn’t hit the mix-up, his position and control afterwards with his normals are quite dominant and he’s in many positions to win with good footsies. As knowledgeable as he is, I find his logic to be a bit wish-washy but I hope there’s something he simply understands better than me rather than him making silly premature judgments. He says Kula’s st.B being longer doesn’t change anything, but now she feels like 02 status and her corner control is very good thanks to it, more so than Arcade. But Dune goes on further to point out her damage output is lower and that affects her and would make Kula players “struggle.” So I don’t know if he actually taking “tools” into account and only damage output. I do agree with him on Benimaru’s j.CD not being a low-angled attack like it was in the past so it hampers his offensive game. But I don’t know if he recognizes that Air Raijinken has no height limitation and that could play a factor in a new neutral/defensive game to compensate for it. So sure he doesn’t have a j.CD for the offensive momentum like he previously did, but there are some new factors to take into account. Then with Hwa Jai, we both recognize the potential and greatness of his Far D. So to some degree he is taking normals into account and other tools but I dunno. Feels kinda patchy here and there with his train of thought and understanding. I don’t want to say I know more than him but there are just a few obvious things that I feel like he’s over looking or he just doesn’t think important but could lead to something bigger in the long run.
So I don’t know, there might be stuff lost in translation and he’s studying the game under a different mindset. But for those looking at these lists, just pay heed to the fact that they’re even saying that these are just initial impressions and that all of us learn things differently and at different paces. So certainly, these lists aren’t end all be all.
Am I the only one who thinks that it’s kinda backwards to ‘tier’ characters without even taking match-ups into account? It seems like most folks have been judging these characters in a vacuum. I mean, does it really matter if a character has amazing tools X, Y and Z if a good chunk of the cast has an answer to those tools?
In any case, it’s just way too early. I do know that I’m starting to like Elizabeth, Shen and Hwa Jai… but it seems like any time I spend any amount of time with a KOF character, I start to like them. It’s always hard for me to have a ‘main team’ in KOFs.
do you have a link to poongko’s tier list?
Good read. You by any chance have Poongko’s personal tier?
leona has the only very threatening unseeable 50/50 in the game (cr.b or instant overhead jump d) which both lead into big damage with meter. he normals are great, low b is long range, fast, easy confirm into whatever, sweep is crazy, ducks under and beats so many things. stand cd is fast and has a ton of range and close to even (+? cant remmeber) on block. low c is pretty fast anti air, jump cd like all cds has a big hitbox and the angle is perfect. normal vert jump d beats stuff and c crosses up. her run is very fast and low. charge b,f D is even on guard, and cancel from cd allows you to only reversal in between. after it is guarded she can play her 50/50 between low b and instant jump d.
‘that low’ well, i dont think anyone is weak in this game. i am just judging based on all the factors i can consider. i think the best thing about ash is probably his b+D and b+B normals. his zoning is decent but not great. his ability to get a hit is really not there, no command grab, no overhead, his crossup is not bad. ex flame thing after throw is cool but i think not something you can depend on. and his damage output is very average on top of taking a lot of effort (and giving the opponent a lot of meter). seal super out of ecto cooler for no cost is nice but not something scary since ash does not have a very threatening mix up or guard break ability. it seems shallow and ignoring nuances, but i think ash users can just play saiki. i think saiki is also just pretty good, but he can do high damage/kill with relatively low effort in similar situations. his stand d can serve in the same way as ash’s good ground moves, as well as being able to bait anti airs with his air command normals which is something very good for a zoning/mid range character.
Telling Ash users could just play Saiki is the same thing as telling Joe users to switch to Hwa Jai, even if both share the same normals - despite both playing very differently.
Well… you did a shallow comparison anyway.
not the same at all. ash and saiki are extremely similar in playstyle while joe and hwajai are very different
Care to elaborate, then? Instead of, you know… being “shallow”?
Ash’s options for damage are very different than Saiki’s - with the latter requiring the corner to really excel at it. Ash also is scarier with meter, since he can stop any air approach of sorts with Sans-culotte with solid damage. Saiki’s DM Command Grab is nice, but Sans-culotte does have more applications.
not that different for that situation considering they are different characters, ash can ecto cooler for 2 bars and saiki can dp xx air super for a bar and a drive. ash also has b+ into level 2. saiki has super grab. ash has ex kiss setup…outside of these things their options into damage are very similar. their projectiles are very similar. their anti air game is very similar. their ground poke game is very similar. crossup very similar.
So, Saiki does not outclass Ash. They’re both different enough from each other. Point proven.
i didn’t know there were other zoners in the game who could kill a character off an anti air
k’ can do it as well. kyo in the corner. and ecto into death is…a lot of meter and the damage from it is decreased in this game. you will need a neomax and if you need neomax then you need another super too since ash cannot directly combo to it (and supers scale more on top of it). i would not say ecto is more useful an asset to the character than saiki instant grab dm. saiki can already do invincible anti air into damage for meter, even if it is less damage. ash has no way to break guard without raw neomax which is a hail mary, which even saiki also has since you can activate tricks into grab xx neomax. that is just a bonus for saiki who commonly has access to it. you can look at…how a character can hold a lead or take back a lead from a patient opponent. saiki can do both, ash can do the former but the latter not so well. that is why i think saiki is stronger than ash
Ash’s control of screen way better than Saiki - with Genie and Sans-culotte being buffered into anything for good mid-screen and corner combos. His projectiles are also more versatile than Saiki’s.
If by “breaking guard” you mean only having acess to a command grab, both Saiki and Ash do have their respective DMs - which have different uses and applications. While it’s way easier to cancel any normal into Saiki’s DM, this fact alone doesn’t make Saiki superior to Ash as a character - since there a lot of other points to take into consideration before making such assumptions. Said points which, by the way, you have yet to name in a objective way.
Also, using commas is a good way to make your text more easier and less obnoxious to read.
When you’re trying to argue that the character you play isn’t just a weaker version of another character, it probably doesn’t help to have a sig that shows you’re the kind of guy who chooses their main characters before the game is even out. Your fanboyism is clouding your judgment IMO.
Why, because he’s defending his stance on an issue? The hell kind of reasoning is this?
“I think I’m gonna like this character in this upcoming game!”
“That gives your arguement less merit. You’re a fanboy.”
What the fucking what?
I guess [S]you[/S] people would rather downplay their characters - you know, it’s way better saying that your character is low-tier - you can blame this alone, instead of taking any responsabilities regarding any loss.
At least I’m giving food for thought here - the other side of the discussion still doesn’t gave any factual info that makes Saiki BETTER AT EVERYTHING than Ash does - which was the original point that said person stated as a fact.
Plus, any tier list thread/discussion revolves into… discussing the characters in-depth - so, if I play Ash, I’m not eligible to talk about him? lulz
Go back to spamming the front page, 'kay?