benis normals are hella good in this game.
Bottom of A Tier, man that must mean Ash is ass hahaha j/k
Going back to (Somewhat) serious discussion I think a ton of people are sleeping on Leona (Though people in this thread have already covered her) and Kula is a bit overrated. She still has her fundamentals but imho outside of all the normals tied to her B button most of her tools don’t do their job as well as they have in previous games (Her jC and cr.C in this game are kinda laughable). Then again, her corner damage is pretty damned high. Don’t get me wrong, she’s super solid but I don’t think she’s on the same exact level as the likes of Kyo.
Doesn’t matter though, nobody in this game strikes me as shitty or underwhelming. Maybe incomplete but everybody can do stuff so there aren’t any 98 bottom-tier level characters. I can definitely see some pretty shitty matchups, but this is a 3vs3 game so w/e.
Also I’m surprised that there isn’t more talk of Ryo, he’s easy as shit and is good all around, especially at neutral.
i meant to say off an antiair anywhere on the screen, which certainly no zoner except him can do. its trivial to even antiair a hop and kill off of it with him. that gives him a sort of comeback factor no other character besides like vice has except his is more consistent since it never trades (like in the case of them coming in with a j.CD)
as a guy who plays a lack luster saiki, I can say he definitely can’t win in the zoning department compared to ash. since he lacks a proper ex fireball, only has one speed fireball, and as his gimmicky (though potentially interesting for shenanigans) teleports instead of ash’s flames, he just doesn’t hold up as well.
I should dedicate more time to learning both ash and saiki, but I have my hands tied trying to learn just one character. I’d love to see an in depth comparison of the two, as they both interest me.
SNK just uploaded this comparing both Kyos.
[media=youtube]5xToP_jFE5U[/media]
Kyo is just buff as always. But too many similarities between him and EX Kyo as a whole, with EX Kyo looking a tad less strong. Gonna have to see what’s really up with the rekkas though.
Kinda would’ve preferred more variety, but was to be expected as Iori was completely redesigned in XII/XIII, and Mr. Karate is one of those characters that you can take a few liberties with in differentiating him from Takuma. He’s more of a persona than anything else. Kyo will pretty much just always be Kyo, though many fans of him over the years will definitely not feel this way.
I prefer Rekka Kyo over Fireball Kyo any day. Having a fireball on Kyo feels relatively redundant, especially since it’s a grounded projectile. It’s like having a double sweep and he already has a pretty decent sweep amongst his tool set. Having a Rekka (qcf+A being safe on block) helps him control the hop space better that extends outside of his st.A range; especially in KOF XIII where he only has cl.A being his st.A and j.D only tips crouchers that are fat on block (being only 3 characters in the game.) So other than just doing j.CD willy nilly (which isn’t a good idea and still lacks the approach from further ranges), Kyo doesn’t really have good pokes and tools that move him forward while closing in while checking the hop range. Having a Rekka while certainly alleviate that problem but with no doubt that his spacing game will still be weaker than it was in, let’s say, 98 og. The only reason why I may feel Fireball Kyo is more viable than Rekka Kyo is because he was specifically designed to take better advantage of the juggle system, as well as Claw Iori. Since Rekka Kyo and Flame Iori are just fundamentally more sound as character with better tools, they counter balanced it by making the Default Kyo and Iori make use of Drive Cancels and HD better. Then they further tweaked things such as giving Default Kyo a command grab with EX HCB+K to extend his utilities while Rekka Kyo only gets a short HCB+K with Invul for his EX. It’s like how in 02 og, Kusanagi was mainly better than Kyo because Kusanagi had better normals outside of cl.C having a smaller activation range. The developers tweaked a few things in favor for Fireball Kyo since Rekka Kyo is generally better designed.
Since I don’t care too much for the Drive Cancel/HD stuff and prefer actual, meaningful tools, I’d most probably only play EX Kyo. Playing between Claw Iori and EX Iori is on the fence, but I’m leaning towards EX Iori due to the fact that he actually has zoning, Rekkas can punish many things on block that would otherwise not be punishable, and he always gets a free safe-hop mix-up on oki after any rekka series on hit. While Claw Iori’s resets and mix-ups are fun, they’re not as safe and consistent against people that mash or don’t think. They way that Claw Iori’s mix-ups worth is that he first has to make the opponent respectful, then he could run dirty stuff (and doing that against an opponent that doesn’t think or pay attention is difficult), and it doesn’t help that Claw Iori has nothing to coax the opponent out of their pace from full/mid-screen, so he has to work to get in. EX Iori’s safe-hop mix-up thrives on the fact that the opponent could do whatever the hell they want on oki and EX Iori could get full damage on them for free because they do it. Then the opponent is forced to be respectful, then Iori could run empty hop > low and etc. then score damage anyways that leads into rekka that leads back into the safe-hop again.
So yeah, how I feel SNKP is balancing the DLC characters is that they’re making the DLC characters better tool-wise, but weaker system mechanic-wise/Drive Bar damage output. Since I feel the damage differentials are negligible, I’d rather have tools than being able to do 50-100 damage more using the same meter resources.
I really feel what you’re saying, and I commend you for it. But that’s why I said I wanna see what’s up with the rekkas. Because unless EX Kyo has some beefy shit, Fireball Kyo is getting played way more obviously. Vid seems to have been removed by user now, but did you see the damage differentials in those last few combos? Went from specks to huge chunks in Fireball Kyo’s favor. This is off the staples.
Now, I’m with you on the sound tools/fundamentals > drives/HD as that’s my style as well, but it’s too easy to go into hit-confirms and get big damage, especially for someone like Kyo who can be meterless and still cripple you. Dudes who run Kyo now and are acclimated to the juggles aren’t gonna wanna give that shit up. Plus having a damn near fullscreen NeoMax that’s instant and can be tagged on the end of alot of shit as opposed to whatever EX Kyo has. That punch? That’s just the final part of his old super? Man…dude will be for the diehards.
But you did hit the nail on the head on some stuff that makes hella sense now and I can explain to my guy who LOVES oldschool Iori but not feeling him as much because he’s drunk off the power he has from running Kyo in tourneys. Now, for all intents and purposes, EX Iori is a more “complete” character, with all the tools, but it’s just something about Kyo taking mad advantage of this system, juggling you like a clown, and being a definite heavy hitter. You called it though.
Also, here, we’re under the current impression that Claw Iori is pretty damn safe. Some stuff only seems punishable if you got a command grab. Plus he hurts like hell, and is able to tag supers unto the end of shit like it’s nothing. Can lock you down. Has a damn dp in EX up claw. He’s just a monster up close. I like his pressure game more than Flame’s because Flame seems to be the one who gets away with shit on mashers as far as rushdown is concerned with toying with them with rekkas or grab, but he does have way more options. I’m in a funny spot personally as I have two legit players here who main either Iori. On paper, I think Flame is better. But with Claw actually needing to get in, and being pretty safe, with mixups and true rushdown, it’s almost like he excels at what they made him for. And by having this one particular focus, it feels specialized. So Claw is scarier to me right now. Flame hurts too but is so prototypical, it might get overwhelming. But I’m really fucking anxious to see what Flame and Rekka Kyo end up doing high level. When some dust clears and tiers actually reach a consensus or make some goddamn sense to where you know what perceptions are truly being taking into account. But we all know where Fireball Kyo stands. If he never developed any further it wouldn’t matter. Dude is that much of powerhouse character.
I’d like to see soundness prevail anyday. But…yea, if dudes are allowed to go nuts they will. We’ll see what happens.
I finally watched the official comparison video SNKP put out for the Kyos. One thing I don’t like that I would have preferred for EX Kyo but it’s with Kyo is that normal Kyo has a wider activation range for his cl.C, so that means Kyo has a kinda stronger frametrap game over EX Kyo. Keyword: Kinda. Doesn’t mean that EX Kyo’s cl.C activation range is like Kusanagi’s in 02 (almost non-existent), but I would have wanted to have equal activation range for EX Kyo. Instead though, EX Kyo could chain his st.B. I’m hoping I could get old school frame traps such as cl.B chain into cr.B then do cl.C strings like in 98, but that’ll be affected by stuff like a shorter cl.C activation range. Nevertheless, at the least I want cl.B chain into cr.B rather than cl.B only into cl.B
On a different note of the Kyos, while normal Kyo is a juggle clown, I find it interesting that EX Kyo could get a free juggle after a grounded Orochinagi, which normal Kyo can’t do. After seeing that 100% combo with EX Kyo just doing dp xx Orochinagi loops, I don’t know who is the bigger juggle clown now. I’d say Kyo could get more damage and have “okay” hard knockdowns for non-meter stuff, but EX Kyo could do about similar damage but have better hard knockdowns for better okizeme.
Oh well, I’ll be dominating way harder with EX Kyo on the table, more so than playing Kyo. I feel too “naked” with Kyo’s moveset. There’s no reason why EX Kyo should be leaving my team.
Well yea when you put it that way, it’s a legit tradeoff.
I don’t doubt that more people will still be inclined to get the g’teed dmg over oki and setups, but I do wanna see this type of play put in the most work(like you at Southtown and Wong at NEC). Not neccesarily just an emphasis on dry basics and mixups, but other funky shit as well.
Semi-interested in EX Kyo now. Not enough to play him, but just to peep the overall impressions after he settles in for a month or so. Actually, I’ve been wondering if Flame has dominated in any high-level tournies yet?
That’s why I put her top tier in my personal list. Ive seen her played at her worse (online matches) and she gives me fits and at her best (from banana ken and Alucard) and I have to really focus on taking her out immediately. She has tooooo many options. I was going to say King is A but once you figure out her shennanigans she goes down a little. Dont get me wrong, shes still really good, but not on the level Kula, Athena, Elizabeth and Yuri is. I also notice Mai is very good in this game too. WTH is this? KoF or king of Skullarcanaegirlhearts??? All the girls are good in this game.
I concurr and I swear to god if I run into one more King/Athena/Kula team online…
I just wish kim had his Haki Kyaku (D,D+ kick) in this game.
I think it was due to mainly familiarity, but the players in the cafeid tournament in Korea mainly used Flame Iori for familiarity. They weren’t doing the safe-hop mix-ups and going for the old school fake-outs on oki, but they were doing really well with him.
Omg you fought banana ken too his Anthena made me look like shit.
My personal list:
S - (no particular order) Shen Woo, Kyo, Iori(claw), King, 98 Iori
A+ - Andy, Elizabeth, Ash, Ralf, Clark, Hwa Jai, K’, Yuri, Takuma.
A - Everyone else