Huh? Which Hotaru players have you been playing? I really don’t see Mudman fucking up a good Hotaru.
I can tell you one thing Kim and Big don’t dominate in. Zoning.
Neither one of those guys has a good projectile.
That game was awesome. Shiki and I had a great time playing casuals at FRXII.
Hypothetically speaking Blake, What does Hotaru do to counter dive kick pressure?
Also Shiki true, and man you may find it hard to believe but I still am talking to those Japanese players about coming over here so we
can all play… 
TR- If I wasnt soo damn tired I wouldve played you all lol.
-DG
They don’t need to. Projectiles are worthless against those characters.
Hypothetically speaking, how does Tung get into position to pressure Hotaru with dive kicks in the first place?
If he does, she can deal with it the same way any character does (ie just block or use GCFS/Tactical Step), but I don’t think Tung ever gets the chance to really pressure her.
Also yes I am basing this off:
- Japanese NGBC tournaments
- Conversations with Akenin and other Japanese Top NGBC players I have from time to time, talking to Tudousan and them givnig me the lowdown on their tier lists, how they even have Kisarah as A Class in their Tier List, how to stop Big, How they believe Dio better than Big etc. (Miura plays Geese-Dio, top player in Japan)
Actually Blake, Fujihara actually came on these boards and YouTube about a year ago and talked about how Big is no longer considered as good as Hotaru and Kim in Japan anymore, how Tung rose in the rankings, and how a Tung/Lee team won one of the biggest post-SBO NGBC tournaments in Japan.
So it’s not something DG is just pulling out of thin air, here.
That said, I don’t agree that Japan knows everything they’re talking about.
One reason Fujihara gave for Japan believing Kim and Hotaru >> Big is because their crouching As are 4-frame startup and Big’s crouching A is 5-frames, so apparently that means Big can’t poke and keep them out. 
I think I even read some guy say Neo-Dio is considered to be a counterpick against Big which is just guano insane. :wtf:
Care to share? I didn’t know you spoke Japanese.
I mean, it’s difficult to really get the lowdown on the game since it’s not really in the spotlight anymore. The magazines don’t cover it.
But yeah, I would venture American tier listings to differ greatly from Japan’s.
EDIT: Shiki, mind pointing me to these posts/vids?
I would agree that Kim/Hotaru are better than Big. Maybe for more reasons than having a faster down+A, but I don’t see it as being wrong. Neo-Dio is just one of those characters we don’t play often over here, so I don’t think we really understand why the character is so good. Japan’s always referred to him as being strong.
Also here is a small excerpt from some of our conversations:
[media=youtube]ho8JKQxe6ig&feature=PlayList&p=CE95BA24C50F9558&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=1[/media]
See the 23 responses??? :looney:
Most of that stuff you are saying Shiki is in those responses.
-DG
Blake see response above to Shiki- Thats just ONE conversation BTW lol. Albeit a VERY VERY long one…lol.
-DG
Reading it is giving me a headache, pretty clear that he is using a translation tool. Might have to wait until I get home before I can make a clearer assessment.
Well, I don’t deny that Hotaru and Kim aren’t really amazingly good, but I think they’re underrating Big just because of their playstyle. I can understand that the American style and approach to the game is entirely different from the Japanese. In Japan, Lee can hang with the top tier just because they have players there who love to specialize in characters like Lee who is the hardest character to use and takes an inordinate amount of patience, execution, and intelligence to use to his maximum potential.
Like I said, I want to see them up against a really patient, really boring, really safe, turtle-your-ass-off-and-be-proud-of-it Big before we take Japanese tiers as the worldwide gospel.
I also feel we need to play more. I’m not taking their tier list as the gospel, but bottom line is they are still playing the game competitively while very few of us are. So I think we need to get back to playing this game competitively again.
U know the “What have you done for me lately?” attitude? What have we done in NGBC lately? When was our last NGBC tournament even??
Well as far as the game is concerned, it has solid gameplay,clean visuals and a overall decent presentation. As for the balance, I think there is a tendecy from these forums to portray Big/Kim as being vastly superior then they actually are. At the appex of this game’s competitive play there is literally a marginal difference in the heights between the tiers in terms of viability. Not to say it’s perfect, but it is a game where the merits of the player’s skill will eventually determine the outcome.
From my personal experience, I have a better time handling a good Big/Kim player with my main team of Kyo/Ryo then I do battling a good Honda player with my Fei in turbo. There really isn’t a helpless situation in that regard, at least I havn’t felt as such in any particular matches…which quite obviously the japs have seem to overcome as well.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/vkXnKzgGDQ8/Scj3uJueoiI/AAAAAAAABDU/YP-qTrOmDQg/s320/Ye_not_guilty(Big_O).JPG
So yeah, I read the comments on the vid and tried to piece it together as best as I could. What I got out of it was:
- Kim and Hotaru are the best in the game.
- Big is no longer top but is still considered good (enough to be A rank).
- Tung is considered better than low tier, but nothing was said to substantiate him being S-, as Lukus put it.
I would attribute Debukun’s success with his team to be more a product of his skill as a player and the fact that his Lee is absolutely sick. Of course, even Fujihara stated that Lee is A at best, and only if you master him. You seem to be exaggerating how strong he is, Lukus.
Fujihara’s list:
S: Kim, Hotaru
A: Big, Dio, Hanzou, Robert, Marco, Moriya, Haohmaru, K’ (serious WTF right here), Mizuchi, Lee, Kaede, Kisara, Iori, Washizuka
Bottom/Trash: Mudman, Yuki, Chonshu
From this we can assume that the rest of the characters are B tier (so that would be Ai, Genjyuro, Mr. Karate, Terry, Rock, Kyo, Fuuma, Asura, Shiki, Akari, Tung, Mai, Shermie, Nakoruru, Cyber-Woo, Chonrei, Geese, Athena, Mars People, Shishioh).
Some reasoning:
Hotaru is really difficult, but according to Fujihara, she makes the best use of NGBC’s system. I suppose you could say she is the theoretical “best” character if pushed to her max potential.
Big’s main weakness seems to be his inability to break a good player’s defense. His only real tool for this is his throw, which is easily broken. He has difficulty fighting opponents with greater ranged fighting ability. Hanzou, Robert and Washizuka are mentioned as being bad matches. Neo-Dio also, because his poke range is much greater (I’ve seen Japanese Dio players just spam the fuck out of standing A). It is mentioned his anti-air is strong, but his jump attacks are considered weak. This puts him at odds next to Kim and Hotaru, who have the ability to control the air with their strong DMs.
Another comparison, Kim takes the most advantage of GCFS and Tactical Step due to his crouch A having great range and being 5 frames to start, as well as leading to his standard combos. Hotaru’s crouch A is 4 frames and can lead to all sorts of combos, including easy Double-Assaults. In comparison, Big has nothing quite as good available to him in those situations. It’s mentioned that he is easy to use, but in general he has too many weakspots and it is difficult to cover for this with your skill as a player.
Something is mentioned about Hotaru being able to input air moves from her backstep. I dunno, I tried it myself and had no luck. This is mentioned as being her strength in being able to evade attacks (suppose this is how she deals with divekicks).
Kim is basically good at all levels, he is easy to use for beginners and becomes even more powerful as you apply your skills.
There’s a couple of other things but some of them are a bit specific and the posts are somewhat confusing due to the words chosen by the translator tool (can’t figure out what “restraint” is supposed to be in the context he’s using it).
About K’…
In Soh85’s account among the SEA of NGBC vids he has, K’ did win vs a Big player. I’d wager that K’ is underestimated.
In the matches previous to the Big match, the K’ player was doing really good. What caught me off guard was the amount of trouble Kyo was having against characters that don’t zone him as well as Marco.
Wasn’t Genjuro labeled bottom tier before?
I really don’t see what makes K’ so good. The players I’ve seen literally do nothing but abuse Tactical Step into the same basic combo of cr.Ax2, f.B into Minutes Spike. Do you realize how many times that has to connect to kill someone? A rank material he is not.
And why is that?
As far as Big goes, there is a reason Japan soft banned him like they did Akuma in ST. It isn’t just some well he is pretty good shit, Big almost breaks the game. Fun game overall though, just no one plays it.
Also I gotta pull out some other stuff from convos between us and dig them out…for thats really…an old conversation… (About a year old)
We have had more since then and they’ve invited me to tournaments and me inviting them etc and we’ve talked about Keeroc etc and other things.
And I’ve talked with Fujihara, Akenin, and Tudousan.
This softban can’t be current because I’ve seen Big played in recent Japanese tournaments…
-DG