What Should TO's do with Edition Select?

[Oilforthewin]

Again, Hugo is supposedly looking awesome in Ultra. At least Zangief can compete currently, with your own numbers in ES the majority of characters wouldn’t even be able to do that.

1.You should look into the Gief forum, what they think about him. He doesn´t have the tools to compete against everyone in this game, also do not forget, how much DWU weakens his mixup game. He won´t be really good.
2. Viable grappler? There is one, but he has sadly a weak playerbase and too high execution barriers :(.
3.[details=Spoiler]http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2013/sep/21/ayano-all-characters-should-be-correct-choice-aiming-level-playing-field-ultra-street-fighter-4-talks-balancing-hardships-and-more/[/details]

Ayano:"That’s half-right and half-wrong. What we’re doing right now is, looking at a character like Hakan for example, we think he’s super low right now. So we want to bump him up, and at the same time, the characters that are too high, we want them to get bumped down.

We want to make it a level playing field, so that every character is actually equal, so that no matter who you choose, or don’t choose, it’ll still be the correct choice. That way, Ken will be correct, Ryu will be correct, Sagat will be correct and so on… Maybe we’ll keep Dan a bit lower than the rest, so people who truly want to prove themselves as the best can choose him. (Laugh)"

One of Capcom´s aim for USF4, if someone believes this.
If Capcom tells the fans that every character should somehow equal in USF4, but TO´s decide to use Edition Select for their tournaments, then Capcom got a problem.

[blufang]

Rhombus’s point was that he wanted a good grappler, Hugo will be that guy even if Zangief isn’t. In terms of Zangief I was talking about ver. 2012 not Ultra.

[Oilforthewin]

Hugo and good? In a game with Gat and other zoners?

[Spiral0Architect]

It doesn’t but the more the better, it’s always a good thing. It allows people to pick who they want rather than be forced to pick from a small group due to necessity.

Would you rather have 30 playable characters that were all garbage (‘balanced’), or 6-8 viable characters that actually felt fun to play?

[HNIC_Mike]

but what about the players that dont play one of the 12/14?

What about them?

If you picked T.Hawk, then it does not matter which version of SF4 or if it’s all of them. If you can’t overcome the tiers then you’re going to lose. Increasing the size of the roster doesn’t change anything.

SF4 has a lot of shit characters. Characters that wallow in mediocrity and only appear any good simply because lots of the characters next to them are also bad. The constant tier shuffling gets old but at least it’s made good versions of most characters. If you’re playing a character that has never been viable, and will not pick up a good one of the type you play (like the grappling example up above), then balance was never in the cards.

Besides that, I cannot imagine people playing a multi-edition game with just one character. The threat of counterpicks is too strong, and of course the incentive. I can easily imagine the meta-game coming up with cycles where, say, Ultra characters counter vortex characters, which in turn counter some of the high damage Vanilla characters, who complete the cycle of countering the Ultra characters.

surely you can see how bringing in the vanilla cast widens the gap between high and low?

sticking to your T.hawk example, he is infinitely weaker in a game with vanilla sagat akuma and seth than he would be in ultra

[Joshkaz]

Unless Hugo has Armor breaking attacks and easy time around zoning I doubt he’ll be good.

In terms of grapplers Hakan is looking to be the best of them now.

[MotM]

but what about the players that dont play one of the 12/14?

What about them?

If you picked T.Hawk, then it does not matter which version of SF4 or if it’s all of them. If you can’t overcome the tiers then you’re going to lose. Increasing the size of the roster doesn’t change anything.

SF4 has a lot of shit characters. Characters that wallow in mediocrity and only appear any good simply because lots of the characters next to them are also bad. The constant tier shuffling gets old but at least it’s made good versions of most characters. If you’re playing a character that has never been viable, and will not pick up a good one of the type you play (like the grappling example up above), then balance was never in the cards.

Besides that, I cannot imagine people playing a multi-edition game with just one character. The threat of counterpicks is too strong, and of course the incentive. I can easily imagine the meta-game coming up with cycles where, say, Ultra characters counter vortex characters, which in turn counter some of the high damage Vanilla characters, who complete the cycle of countering the Ultra characters.

surely you can see how bringing in the vanilla cast widens the gap between high and low?

sticking to your T.hawk example, he is infinitely weaker in a game with vanilla sagat akuma and seth than he would be in ultra

Not in an appreciable way in comparison to character archetype balance. T.Hawk has always suffered horrible matchups in SF4 iterations. The problem is not the entire rest of the roster, it’s just T.Hawk. They’ve about to make their fourth shot at making him good. To be honest I don’t see why any of the current USF4 changes are going to make him any good. If that is the case then axing a really great mode that will offer real options to grappler players because “The T.Hawk players won’t like it” is beyond unreasonable. It’s holding back a good meta-game over a bad character.

[MachoRhombus]

Rhombus’s point was that he wanted a good grappler, Hugo will be that guy even if Zangief isn’t. In terms of Zangief I was talking about ver. 2012 not Ultra.

Sorry for not buying the word of a guy who thinks that Gief’s close LK being special cancellable is a big buff.

Have we seen footage of Sagat/Juri/Dhalsim/Akuma/Seth vs Hugo? because it really does feel like he’ll have an even harder time vs zoning than both Hawk and Gief, doesn’t sound exactly viable in a game where riding knockdowns will be hard as fuck thanks to DWU.

And, funnily enough, you’re telling me to stick with Hugo because he’ll be a good grappler, therefore limiting my choice to pick the grappler I want to pick, so you are working against your own argument.

[SoVi3t]

It’s a shame this isn’t available online. Not hard to just have a custom search setting to only allow certain game versions to be searched. Even Mr Wiz is pissed its not available online. I hope this gets changed before release or fucking patched.

It should at least be TRIED at tournaments. Ultra, if balanced enough, should still be the tournament standard though.

deep down though, I say fuck it. Give me the OG characters, with the Ultra add ons (dual ultras, red focus, delayed wakeup, etc).

[HNIC_Mike]

but what about the players that dont play one of the 12/14?

What about them?

If you picked T.Hawk, then it does not matter which version of SF4 or if it’s all of them. If you can’t overcome the tiers then you’re going to lose. Increasing the size of the roster doesn’t change anything.

SF4 has a lot of shit characters. Characters that wallow in mediocrity and only appear any good simply because lots of the characters next to them are also bad. The constant tier shuffling gets old but at least it’s made good versions of most characters. If you’re playing a character that has never been viable, and will not pick up a good one of the type you play (like the grappling example up above), then balance was never in the cards.

Besides that, I cannot imagine people playing a multi-edition game with just one character. The threat of counterpicks is too strong, and of course the incentive. I can easily imagine the meta-game coming up with cycles where, say, Ultra characters counter vortex characters, which in turn counter some of the high damage Vanilla characters, who complete the cycle of countering the Ultra characters.

surely you can see how bringing in the vanilla cast widens the gap between high and low?

sticking to your T.hawk example, he is infinitely weaker in a game with vanilla sagat akuma and seth than he would be in ultra

Not in an appreciable way in comparison to character archetype balance. T.Hawk has always suffered horrible matchups in SF4 iterations. The problem is not the entire rest of the roster, it’s just T.Hawk. They’ve about to make their fourth shot at making him good. To be honest I don’t see why any of the current USF4 changes are going to make him any good. If that is the case then axing a really great mode that will offer real options to grappler players because “The T.Hawk players won’t like it” is beyond unreasonable. It’s holding back a good meta-game over a bad character.

hawk is just one example. guy, dudley, gouken, deejay, juri, hakan, oni, and e.ryu are all characters who have gotten progressively more competitive in each game they have been in. all would likely get demolished by any grouping of top tier in ES

and how can you say “in any appreciable way”? if youre a guy like hungbee for example who is teetering on being a top 8 player, and your counter picks can either get easier or a fuck ton harder, you definitely appreciate vanilla sagat not being in the game

the reason people are able to overcome tiers in this series is because the gap in sf4 is always small between low and high. i doubt that playing a successful low tier is a trend that could continue should that gap be widened

[Missing_Person]

I was okay with playing Ultra characters only before the announcement. Hearing how edition mode works, and its lack of online and arcade support, I’m still okay with playing Ultra characters only. I’m just not okay with dev time being used on this when there’s no real purpose for us to even use this mode except out of boredom.

If this mode never existed, I’d have still been fine with ultra. Its existence is now just goofy. That’s putting it nicely. Just feels like bloatware now.

Now I just hope Capcom doesn’t act like Capcom and make DLC to unlock it for online mode later, and then suddenly put it into the arcade edition.

[SoVi3t]

and how can you say “in any appreciable way”? if youre a guy like hungbee for example who is teetering on being a top 8 player, and your counter picks can either get easier or a fuck ton harder, you definitely appreciate vanilla sagat not being in the game

I dunno, there is still that ‘unrevealed’ fifth character that could topple the infamous Sagat Tier.

One of my favourite thing about SF4 has been that nothing has really been banned. There are no banned characters. Some people cry about stage input so technically we have some stage bans but whatever. Certain techniques are frowned upon, but still allowed.

Nobody is saying we have to have every tournament only run Ultra, or only run YOLO. But to just completely ignore a fun feature like this, would be a shame.

[MotM]

and how can you say “in any appreciable way”?

A way that actually matters. I see no reason that, should T.Hawk still be garbage in Ultra, the game should not be held up for him. Again, it does not make one difference if he’s playing against Vanilla Sagat. Just replace Vanilla Sagat with a good zoner in Ultra, nothing changed. Adding a good zoner with higher damage doesn’t change anything because the damage isn’t why T.Hawk is losing in the first place. Hell, T.Hawk is losing to lots of characters that aren’t zoners, he’s just not good. So yes, despite incremental increases in capability, if he’s still not any good in terms of the meta-game, then the meta-game should ignore him.

Juri is a good example by the way, to me she looks like the most buffed character. Real attempt by Capcom to make the character relevant. If low tiers don’t get that treatment by Capcom then that’s the place those characters get.

[Missing_Person]

Here’s the thing, there’s always going to be imbalance unless you have two identical characters. T. Hawk is always going to be on an uphill battle with characters like Blanka and Deejay.

Trying to fix characters to all be viable is a noble effort, but ultimately, SOMEONE is going to get left out in the cold. Whether edition mode would’ve fixed that to some extent? I’m not sure, I doubt it. We probably won’t know because no one’s going to want to test it, because what’s the point?

[HNIC_Mike]

and how can you say “in any appreciable way”?

A way that actually matters. I see no reason that, should T.Hawk still be garbage in Ultra, the game should not be held up for him. Again, it does not make one difference if he’s playing against Vanilla Sagat. Just replace Vanilla Sagat with a good zoner in Ultra, nothing changed. Adding a good zoner with higher damage doesn’t change anything because the damage isn’t why T.Hawk is losing in the first place. Hell, T.Hawk is losing to lots of characters that aren’t zoners, he’s just not good. So yes, despite incremental increases in capability, if he’s still not any good in terms of the meta-game, then the meta-game should ignore him.

Juri is a good example by the way, to me she looks like the most buffed character. Real attempt by Capcom to make the character relevant. If low tiers don’t get that treatment by Capcom then that’s the place those characters get.

it does make a difference tho. real life scenario-

you get counter picked by a non sagat main in ultra-you probably can still win. its a bad match 7-3 at worse, but not bad enough where the character covers whatever flaws you have in the match

you get counter picked by a non sagat main playing vanilla sagat in ES- the match is now literally 9-1. hope he doesnt know how to throw shots or fadc his dps

and like i said thats just using the extreme of sagat v hawk. you’ll still have other broken match ups like vanilla blanka vs hawk, vanilla rufus vs any sim, any guy vs vanilla gief, dudley vs super or AE fei. and im sure there are many more

now if you want to say thats still ok, fuck those characters, ES is a better game, again i would have to ask if the game is appreciably better than the more balanced version that we are going to get

[MotM]

Dude, would you listen to yourself?

If an experienced T.Hawk is getting beaten by a day1 Vanilla Sagat (which is not 9-1), then no, I don’t want a single meta-game decision to revolve around T.Hawk at all. He’s garbage. Besides that, there’s nothing stopping you from switching to Super/Ultra Chun or Ultra Juri and doing day1 counterpick if it is actually that extreme.

You are convoluting concepts. This isn’t a question of character balance. Character balance already happened and was finalized weeks before the game comes out. This is a question of whether the meta-game should adopt this for the benefit of the -player-, NOT the -character-.

The only time balance complaints that hold up and can kill a game are if there are a lot of people saying “I play this type of character, but they’re not good in this game”. Ultra only does not fix that. Everybody having access to good zoners, good rushdown, good vortex, good grapplers, good footsies (okay, all of SF4 has a problem with good footsies, but this is still the closest to a solution). That is appreciable balance. “Well, we made half of the characters pretty bad at their main gameplan, but at least Deejay doesn’t get shit on as hard”, I don’t see how that’s balanced.

[HNIC_Mike]

Dude, would you listen to yourself?

If an experienced T.Hawk is getting beaten by a day1 Vanilla Sagat (which is not 9-1), then no, I don’t want a single meta-game decision to revolve around T.Hawk at all. He’s garbage. Besides that, there’s nothing stopping you from switching to Super/Ultra Chun or Ultra Juri and doing day1 counterpick if it is actually that extreme.

You are convoluting concepts. This isn’t a question of character balance. Character balance already happened and was finalized weeks before the game comes out. This is a question of whether the meta-game should adopt this for the benefit of the -player-, NOT the -character-.

The only time balance complaints that hold up and can kill a game are if there are a lot of people saying “I play this type of character, but they’re not good in this game”. Ultra only does not fix that. Everybody having access to good zoners, good rushdown, good vortex, good grapplers, good footsies (okay, all of SF4 has a problem with good footsies, but this is still the closest to a solution). That is appreciable balance. “Well, we made half of the characters pretty bad at their main gameplan, but at least Deejay doesn’t get shit on as hard”, I don’t see how that’s balanced.

who said day 1? im talking about tournament level players having the ability to play vanilla sagat at a competent enough level to win. when you step into those extreme matchups in sf4’s engine, you dont have to really know that much about the character to win lop sided matches.

its a fairly straight forward concept

7-3 maybe you need to understand spacing or some other high level nuance to represent the match score

9-1 now you only need to be able to read the command list

i think edition select presents more of those 9-1 matches. im not making the argument of balance=better. but you have to understand that most of the current player base actually enjoys a more balanced game over a game with stronger characters. the one revision of the series that ended up with dominant characters, AE, is the most disliked version. while the 2 more tame versions with the weaker top tiers, Super and 2012, are regarded as the best

and vanilla sagat vs hawk would absolutely be 8-2 or worse. its currently a 7-3. you give sagat a much stronger ground game, faster recovering fireballs, more damage, and equal health to hawk and the score definitely doesnt stay close to the same. and no, faster walk speed and a non comboable cr.mk doesnt keep things close

[blufang]

12-14 viable characters. So let’s say 13.

There will be 44 characters in Ultra.

So less than a 1/3 of the characters will even be viable. So a ton of people have to drop their character. Also Motm plz stop using T Hawk, forget bottom of the barrel, a lot of mid tier characters in ver 2012 will get absolutely destroyed. Ones that function fine currently but won’t be able to compete in ES.

Didn’t Sagat have as much stamina in vanilla as T Hawk does in ver. 2012? Didn’t vanilla Sagat hit harder than Evil Ryu in the current game? I mean it is ridiculous, I said servbot previously cause that is how it will be for a lot of characters. It won’t be an uphill battle, it will be an impossible one.

[Spiral0Architect]

I personally would not care if a large majority of the cast is unplayable, as long as there is a good and fun metagame. Look at Marvel 2. The gods make most of the rest of the cast look like trash. But there is a balanced and fun metagame within those playable characters, with teams that represent all of the basic archetypes of the game.

But none of this matters, since we don’t know what will end up happening if this version is explored, since we don’t have it yet. Please stop trying to kill it before it’s even born.

[blufang]

Hard to find lists of changes, but consider Akuma. This is only partial, can’t find a full changelog.

Vanilla to Super changes
Akuma
Far HK - 5060 changed to 6040 (loss of 10 damage)
crMP - 70 reduced to 60
crMK - 70 reduced to 60
crHK - 110 reduced to 90 stun reduced from 200 to 100
Shakunetsu LP - Stun increased from 100 to 200
Shakunetsu MP - damage reduced from 5050 to 3535
Shakunetsu HP - damage reduced from 50x3 to 33x3. Stun reduced from 5050100 to 35x3
Shakunetsu EX - damage reduced from 60x3 to 47x3. Stun reduced from 100x3 to 70x3
LP SRK - damage reduced on early frames from 130 to 100. Stun reduced from 200 to 100
MP SRK - damage reduced from 8080 to 7060. Stun reduced from 100100 to 8050
HP SRK - damage reduced from 806050 to 705030. Stun reduced from 1005050 to 705030
LK Tatsu - Stun reduced from 100 to 50
Demon Flip Throw - Stun reduced from 200 to 150
Ultra - Damage reduced from 600 to 510
Loss of far HK loops
far HK no longer 2 hits all crouchers

That is just from Super, Akuma was subquently nerfed in AE (lost cowardcopter) and AE 2012…and he is arguable the best character in this game despite being a shell of his former self. Akuma players could probably elaborate in detail.
So no, T Hawk won’t just have trouble competing, a ton of characters who never had a super powered vanilla version will have no shot.