I will stop posting on SRK for the rest of my life if you can show me some proof on the new input system being impossible (or very hard) to adapt to to the point where it fucks up tourneys. if you can’t do that you’re not saying anything I want to hear
What high level fighting games (on console) do you find online apart from VF5 on 360, and where top players actually play? Is GGXXAC online? 3S?
You do realise that none of the fighting games deemed ‘hard’ are actually on console and online…and those that are (KoF on XBLA for example), pretty much have no top players on them.
Then people don’t have functioning brains to think these things through.
what? i’m saying that theres literally no fighting game with a legitimately good way of matchmaking players by a ‘rating’
really i don’t have a clue what you are trying to say
I’m sigging this!
I was playing CoD Zombies the other night. I don’t like most FPS’, don’t play them often, and get bored easily of them, and could care less about being good at them, but for some reason, this game caught my eye. As I was blowing the heads off of zombie after zombie with copious amounts of help from the ever-accommodating auto-aim, I thought, “I’m kicking ass!” And as that thought settled into my brain, I realized that I finally understood the casual mindset.
What’s the justification for making games more “casual friendly?” The fact that any given player has THOUSANDS of games to choose from. I play a lot of games on my iPhone and if something I download doesn’t flip my switch in the first few minutes, then that shit gets deleted and I go look among the thousands of other choices where that came from for something to play. I’m a lot more serious about fighting games, but I don’t play tons of them seriously. I play a lot of them but I don’t put a lot of time into ones that I don’t like as much.
Game companies know this and with budgets being bigger and competition being more and more fierce, they know they have to cut to the chase to bring people in. They’re catering to people who just want to knock their friends around on a friday night, who couldn’t give a fuck about “frame data,” “metagame,” and “execution.” If you care about any of those words, Capcom cares about you, but not as much as they care about the former folks, because there are more of them than there are of you.
the challenge promode arena dev team cares about you
edit: and me and all of us
This is the clip that needs to be posted whenever someone tries to claim melee is a serious competitive game. Actually, it’s kind of funny, because this is the sort of stupid shit you get when people try to take a fun, lighthearted game TOO seriously.
Pretty much, if there’s any group you can truly count on to make a hash of things, it’s the people desperately trying to be h4rdc0re g4m3rz because they think it means something other than “dipshit who buys AAA games habitually”.
Learn to parse your own retarded argument. What, you honestly want to think that everyone’s so direly intimidating in person? No one cares. In fact, metric tons of shittalk happens at arcades, in person, face to face. People who use the whole “anonymity on the internet” trope are really just too pussy to boast that they’d beat someone’s ass IRL, mostly because they know how idiotic it would be to say it.
So voila. “Beat your ass IRL” argument without actually putting yourself in the firing line. Because, again, sailor, no one’s actually intimidated, or would be intimidated, by meeting anyone they’d come across online.
Yeah. Protip, spanky? Once you see Shiro miss ultras at GG and getting EX Falling Sky instead, there’s something fucking wrong. And when you can input reverse SRK motions and get shortcuts for forward SRK motions, shit’s pretty screwed.
You were on to something until this. The competition isn’t fierce, the publishing side is just that fucking retarded. They’re not catering to anyone but what the clueless execs perceive to be the “target audience”.
“Casual” gamers do not exist as we’ve been told they do. There are only two parties:
A) Idiots who still stick with gaming blindly, or at least bitterly
and
B) People who have better shit to do with their time than dick around with the random design clusterfucks cloaked in hefty marketing budgets that constitute hardcore gaming
caim i appreciate your sentiment but there are actually a few good games that exist and when i say a few i literally mean like a few
Lame. From my limited experience with SF4 (would rather play GG/Jojo’s), the combos weren’t even THAT hard, even with the 1-framers. There were no crazy joystick inputs for the combos that contained 1-framers, the combos were input fairly slowly and they were pretty short.
All the bnb’s (i played guy) didn’t even take much time to do all the way through even once. Maybe 30 minutes at most to do one of the bnb’s the first time. How can you say that’s hard?
A REAL hard combo would be the first combo in this vid: [media=youtube]BTZYhO1RqE8[/media]. That combo took me 30-40 hours of straight practicing over a month and a half just to do it in its entirety, ONCE. Hell, that’s not even Dio’s hardest (humanly possible) combo, that’s his fucking bnb.
I mean, really, people always seem to be bitchin’ about 1-framers in SF4 even when they aren’t even that hard. 30 minutes of practice a day and even for the people with bad execution should be able to do their character’s bnbs fairly easily after a couple months.
yeah but really the 1 frame links in sf4 are dumb since literally every single other thing in the game is stupendously dumbed down its a consistency issue. why can’t they just make the whole game for dumb people? i wish it didn’t have a single redeeming qualityaasbdhssdbh wait it doesn’t
You’re a joke. Go take a swing by 4chan and tell me anonymity doesn’t bring out asshats. Unless you actually believe all those people act that way in their daily lives. I guess I do have to parse it since you can’t do it yourself. It has nothing to do with fear or violence. You put that in there on your own. It has to do with most people being relatively pleasant in their dealings with other people. Which is ironic because I’d bet money that you are as well despite acting like major dick at the moment here on a message board.
The “shit talk” you see is competitive ribbing. A far cry from various racial slurs that get shouted over Xbox Live on a daily basis. The number of real fights that break out in arcades is relatively small. And this is coming from somebody who frequented what was the most successful arcade in New Jersey until it shut down a little while ago.
Take a look. Learn something.
http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/internet-theory.jpg
Maybe you already have since you fit the bill pretty well.
They don’t have to be that hard. The point is that they have no real reason to be there at all. Geese’s pretzel isn’t that hard either with a stick. But the motion has no real reason to exist. It’s completely superfluous.
yeah even im pretty personable
You know, maybe theses people only mash because that’s all they know how to do. If you place the tutorial right in front of them, I can guarantee some people will benefit from it. Look, you just made a new hardcore customer. Some will invariably skip the tutorial (you never ever make tutorials mandatory. The people who will benefit from it the most won’t skip it, and you won’t frustrate the people who don’t need it/want to mash) but it’s better than nothing.
I’m glad you mentioned Bayonetta, because that’s actually a game that caters to both hardcore and casuals. It has three levels of real difficulty where the game is actually a game (and a fairly difficult one at that), and then there are two bitch modes where you literally only need one button to mash, and it’ll give you fancy combos. You don’t even need to touch the control stick; just mash the attack buttons and the game will automatically string together cool looking combos. Now, something like that isn’t something I’d implement in a fighting game (well, maybe, but not for online. Just single player and local VS matches) but it’s a good concept that shows you don’t have to alienate either player base.
Also, you know what you call a game whose best strategy is degenerate? A BAD GAME.
As for execution, I agree with you, but a tutorial that gives you tips certainly can’t hurt. For example, after I watched some videos of Iron Man in MvC2, I learned how to do his infinite and it’s setups MUCH faster than if I just would have read off the button inputs. You still have to learn the button timings yourself, but you can’t say tutorials don’t HELP, even for execution stuff. Other than that, I agree with the middle of the road approach to execution. Make the execution as simple as it needs to be but not simpler. TonytheTiger explained it in a previous post.
The problem with a tutorial video though is that a lot of the stuff that ends up developing in these games are utterly unintended and/or bugs at launch that end up just being adopted because they work… Someone mentioned DMC… one of the core comboing mechanics of DMC3 is jump cancelling, which was a bug… but not fixed in the special edition and supported as a full mechanic in the game after that ( which has its own bugs that people use to combo )
Yeah, his execution.
if i ever get find a lamp and a genie and get 3 wishes, I’m giving you my first wish
I thought about it for a while and then realized to ask myself one question…
what kind of a person justifies pander?
i dont have much trouble with 1 frame links but it’s not like they add anything to the game. theyre hard enough that it’s a mild annoyance having to learn them but easy enough that it’s not remotely impressive when people land them so what’s the point? i’d understand if they were accidents but it’s pretty clear capcom put that shit in there on purpose to appease (their bizarre understanding of) the hardcore crowd, as if to apologise for simultaneously dumbing down pretty much everything else in the game.
I wish people wouldn’t turn these threads into troll/flame wars because it can be good to discuss this more casual trend in games.
But back on topic, when someone mentioned SFIII being unsuccessful, I think it was the hardcore elements combined with mostly new characters that threw people off. Capcom should have picked one or the other imo, but kudos to them for being ballsy.
In regards to how dumb downed SF4 is to some people, its not that bothersome to me. What bothers me more is I get bored easier by some of the changes (from SF III). You have to take into consideration that fighting games are very repetitive when compared to other games, so the only way you can maintain interest is either to learn new fighters or to have a rich fighting system that keeps on giving from practice (and feigns highly repetitive patterns). I think SFIII: 3rd strike got this down, it made matches not always as predictable as other SF games and essentially mixed up SF play styles in general.
But what it all comes down to is I really don’t want to play the same game for 20 years… Even though I enjoyed SF2 I don’t want to play SF 2.5, SF 2.75, etc, which I feel SF4 turned out to be. In essence I want SF to evolve, not be revamped or repackaged ;///
i wonder if people will ever start bitching about the top tier in ssf4 when it turns out to be a majority of brainless ‘ride this gross mixup to victory’ characters like they did the sf4 top tier who, while they might have been too strong (though really only because the rest of the cast was so shitty), at least required an understanding of sf fundamentals to do well with.
cant wait for abels rufuses dudleys akumas and ibukis trading perfects all day in high level play. even in making the game more offense-based they managed to do it in the most incredibly stupid way lol.
Yeah. Might be news to you sport, but everyone knows about 4chan. And we’re all pretty sure that the only people who post there actually ARE fucktards in real life.
OH bullshit. It’s the same idiocy either way. The only real difference is that online you get people whining about how you wouldn’t say something to their almost certainly unintimidating face. For slurs, it’s the same thing: in an arcade the only real deterrent is being able to intimidate someone from doing something like that again, whether it’s physically or socially.
That’s the crux of the argument. There’s a point where it really just becomes a needless barrier. The core concept behind good design is that of communication, and in cases like that you’re really just making it more obnoxious for the player to translate what he wants to do to what happens on the screen. Then you have the flipside of SF4, where in trying to make it easier, they really just made it easier for a few moves while screwing the others over.
Well, it can also be like the Xbox Ninja Gaidens, where doing anything more than mashing doesn’t seem that intuitive. The game pretty much just tosses a bunch of bullshit setpieces at you, none of which were even remotely intended to be fair, and you get to figure out which of the 20 billion combos are actually relevant. End result: you might as well just go to GameFAQs to find the 3 combos that make the other 17 billion pointless.
I’m of the school that tutorials, at this point in the history of gaming, are just a kludge for amazingly unintuitive interfaces. More and more it seems like they’re less about teaching you how the game works than they are about the devs trying to fluff their own egos about the super-brilliant idea of taking the same actions games have offered for 20 years, with layouts that have existed since the SNES, and rearranging them to require the weirdest buttonpresses.
Making things short
In order to apply to scrubs, you need to give them a show - Awesome gfx/tons of characters/awesome characters/awesome attacks/known franchise/characters
For example - MvC3 will sell no matter if it’s gonna be “easymode” or hardcore. It’s a freaking game of fucking Capcom vs fucking Marvel. Everyone knows at least 1 Capcom character, everyone knows the marvel ones [Especially from the new comic book movies trend, not to mention MvC3 is gonna be released near the “Thor” “Captain America” and “Avengers” films]
However if you want to keep/boost the “after first days sales”/“people that keep playing”/“people who recommend this to other friends” you may need to help with the execution. But it can be done without actually harming the game
-
Easy mode just like MvC1 and BB
-
Tutorial mode/movie
-
Easy AI on story mode [People will think theyre winning because theyre good/won’t be frustrated to finish the game]
-
Single player heaven [Unlockables/trophys/custom modes/charachter design mode]
-
Starting simple but adding more and more depth in the next revisions
-
Capcom like any other company is a company that first of all is creating games in order to get money. If you really want a game that applies to hardcore you can rely on any of those ways
-
Hope that the company just releases the “easy” game in order to get money/interest for a next game which will be hardcore [Arcsys with BB for example]
-
A company that dosen’t care about the money [Pfft]
-
A game from the community itself [Indie game]
What can I say really? Alot of the time companies think they know what they’re doing
And btw, I’m 99% that Seth meant about the launcher button that it’s now easier not more than D+HP, but easier to do other than learn some character specific and different launchers [Such as c.mk>hk with Spidey, s.HK with Capcom/WarMachine/Megaman etc [Which I’m sort of sure were on MvC2 as well and not only MvC1]