3s was supposed to be this whole new era of SF. They spend TONS of money doing sprite based graphics even though @ the time vf ekken\soul calibur were extremely popular 3d games. Capcom stuck to 2d. They hire a legit music producer to do the sound track. The games design was so bad to regular player that no one would touch it. It totally went into a new direction from the “SF” path in terms of game play. Some people here love 3s but it didn’t have the popularity as other capcom fighters had.
Here is where it becomes all of our problems. Since the game was so poorly received, capcom doesn’t release another good fighter for 10 years. CFJ was just a cut and paste job, can’t call that a “new” fighter. When capcom releases a fighter and no one plays it, they assume everyone stops playing fighting games. Thats not the case, its just no one would play a shitty fighting game. However, if you wait 10 years between releases, it doesn’t matter what game is released apparently.
If we stop supporting capcom by not playing their “bad” fighting games, they release 0 fighting games. So we’re basically forced to play whatever they hand out if we want a good game to pop up sooner or later.
Instead of making games easier developers need to have the game come with tutorials that explain the mechanics and such. The tutorial they had in Blazblue CT was a step in the right direction, regardless of what you think of the actual game itself. The tutorials should be interactive and IN the actual game, not a DVD. Lets you play along right with the demonstration.
Irony considering you’re playing internet badass with this post…sport. You’re stupid. I never said anything about a fight and how you inferred I was talking about myself starting one I’ll never know. I said people aren’t as ballsy face to face as they are over the net. If you deny that you’re even dumber. Now learn to read.
I believe that if someone likes a game, then they will definitely try to become better at it, no matter if it’s easy or hard. I can understand companies (not just Capcom) trying to bring more casual people to play the game by lowering the execution barrier. People want to have a sense of getting better, and when something doesn’t happen when they want it to, they get frustrated, and companies want the bottom line (lots of money). My problem is when lowering execution compromises the game. MvC2, in terms of getting moves out and hitting 10 hit combos was easier than ST, but ask anyone that knows, and they will tell you that MvC2 is definitely a harder game to get good at. The lenient execution doesn’t strictly effect execution, but it can effect the meta-game. In TvC, if you tried to super jump forward with Ryu and tried air dashing when say a character sprite above the ground, you would get a super, so now you can’t really get a quicker momentum on the opponent, because you have to watch out for the lenient input. Also, if you play Seth in S/SF4, you know how BS it is just making sure to do the “right” move.
I believe companies can do more to compliment casuals, such as having a good tutorial mode, and making online play where you have the option to play people at your own skill level (so if you want to play someone that is better, or even worse than you are, you can so choose), or even something like a world tour mode from SFA3. Companies don’t have to necessarily change the leniency of the inputs, it isn’t like we are dealing with FF 1-3, or AOF 1-2 inputs. And honestly, SF4 would have sold well either way, due to the name and actually having some type of advertisement, which probably hadn’t happened for a Capcom fighter, since Alpha 3.
Bottom line, as long as the game isn’t compromised, due to lenient inputs, or something else, then even the core players could be fine with it. Casual players can also be brought in without hindering the game through other features. I said this in the MvC3 forum, but I would rather play a game that gets consistent play for years (the consistent tournament games), rather than play an over-hyped flavor of the month (have your choice), and the way the game’s system works and develops definitely factors into that.
I mean lets look at an easy example: Beatemups. Especially recent ones like say DMC/God of war/Bayonetta.
These games have fairly simple, yet complicated combo systems built into them, with large branching paths at almost any point and multiple weapons and of course the ability to flip between them on the fly.
Wanna know what the average player does? The ones that theres millions of who they get most of their money from. X,X,X,X,X,X. Maybe another button here or there, but not much else. So sure there’s amazing combo video’s out there and really cool and intricate way to completely destroy your opponents, but in the end more than 70% of your player base is either mashing one, or ALL of the buttons.
Even better because they know this, and because they design for this, most of the games best strategies are pretty degenerate. GoW2 for all its niffty combo’s is usually beaten on the hardest difficulties by hitting once or twice, rolling around, and throwing things at each other. ninja gaiden generally devolves to one optimum combo that you dodge around looking for openings to do. DMC and Bayonetta are screwy enough you can do whatever you want after a certain point which is both good and bad.
Point is games like these SELL and they sell well. So why go through all the effort of putting in a tutorial that teaches you how to use all these niffty combo’s when almost everyone is just going to whine about how they can’t skip the tutorial and then continue to mash X and whine more if that doesn’t work? Fighters are looking at the same problem. You need to entice people to stick around because they’re childish and stupid.
Hell look at ANY flamewar between two games on this forum. SFIV vs MvC2/Tekken vs SC/ UMK3 vs ANYTHING/etc. It’s always the same pattern, point out how your game has all these cool and intricate systems, and then point out how the other game is stupid and dumb and think of those 3 flaws you read about in another topic and harp on those EVEN THOUGH YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE GAME. Hell you can even do fighting games vs other genres like FPS or RTS. People aren’t actually going to bother to learn the pros and cons of each game unless they have some reason to, and picking up one fighter is usually more than enough for most people. People don’t want to learn, they want to play and enjoy what they have with as minimal effort as possible and point and laugh at anything that might be worse.
Finally why are we even discussing execution? I think it’s pretty easy to agree a middle ground is fine there because even the most intricate tutorial in the fucking world isn’t going to make me feel any better about having to practice ROM resets OVER AND OVER again. Only certain types of people will be willing to do things like that even if you show them how, so why make things that hard in the first place? Balance through complexity is a very dangerous ground to play on and I feel that theres very very few fighters that have ever done that right.
are you thinking of their plight at all? they want a game they can jump into, not know what they’re doing too well, and have fun. they want to picture what they’re trying to do and then be able to do it (ever thought you were doing a shoryuken and it doesn’t come out? very frustrating, imagine how a casual gamer must feel about this). maybe grow a little bit while they’re playing, develop some strategies they can tuck away in their pocket and use against their friends. the idea of tutorials makes people think they can’t just jump right into it. nevermind that, you gotta be out your fuckin mind if you think a game is gonna teach you the most important aspect of being successful at FGs: escaping scrubdom
not all change is good. why are you talking this way when you haven’t even played the game that’s being discussed.
So the fuck what? Casuals can press buttons, get cool shit and have fun already. Why remove the hard shit that the more serious crowd wants. Why not think of BOTH audiences.
first of all, don’t even try that shit. what I need to make that argument about SF4 is observation and feedback from those who have played, both of which I have. what I’ve discovered is that no one good fucks up. that means the correct way to do shit can be learned.
second… good is a relative word. if it doesn’t help casual gamers perform better, which is the intended goal, then I’d support a change that does. even if it further interferes with how hardcore gamers play. I’d most support a way that helps both casual and hardcore though, but hey this is their game
third, even if it is absolutely detrimental to both groups, what does it matter? here’s a more troubling example. let’s say in SF4T or whatever, capcom decides to do some stupid shit like change how the directional pad works. pressing up moves you right, down moves you left, right moves you down, left moves you up. yeah, such a change would be unwanted, retarded, weird to adjust to, etc. but are you saying that just because it’s not set in the traditional way, you can’t adapt? are you saying that you refuse to have any dealings with it because of that?
it’s one thing to dislike a game because of such a function. I don’t really like that just about everything in 3S can be parried, and i doubly hate that Ibuki’s jab can be parried using the crouching or standing parry. so from that stance, it’s all good. but it’s another thing entirely to say “I would play this game if it were made the way I feel it should be”, that just makes you sound like a brat. who are you to decide that?
I was thinking about this but you know something? These mission style modes designed to introduce the player to the facets of the game are consistently unhelpful because they build bad habits. Alpha 3 was notorious for asking the player to guard crush an opponent to complete a mission but the A.I. never blocks. Soul Calibur does the same thing. It demands the player use all the different subsystems to move forward in the missions but real play doesn’t work that way. Whenever I play those modes I find myself exploiting A.I. quirks to complete the stage rather than actually learning how to play the game. I learn how to beat the mission but those skills never carry over into an actual match.
Casuals who press buttons and don’t win don’t buy your games. They just rent them or hear from friends how they suck and then you don’t get to make batshit crazy amounts of money.
Edit:
Tony is right in that the biggest problem with tutorials is the AI in fighters blows. I mean it’s probably pretty hard to make a human like AI in a figther so it’s likely to always be an issue, but the best way to learn is against competition. This is why usually the best you ever get are DVD’s like BB and VF4 Evo’s system. Still not something thats likely to grab the big casual crowd.
Although i will admit that seeing combo’s actually done and showing what you can do gives a reason to try and do it.
Not really, they’re both examples of a player being unable or unwilling to adapt and blaming the system instead. At least I think that’s what he’s getting at.
SSF4’s input leniency is absurd (( and it probably hurts new players more than it helps them to be honest, so even sillier in that regard )), but if you’re constantly throwing out the wrong move, it’s not the game. I know I had the same problem when I picked up Super… But practice helps fix that… Only really have problems with throwing out whiffed SPDs instead of Slides or Booms on Hakan and Seth respectively right now, usually after jumping back or a backdash… working on it though… Oh, and I get ibuki’s super a lot when I try to kunai after a super jump.
You haven’t played the game. Uh, is it hard for you to understand that that means a lot when you try to talk about it? Not saying you can’t have an opinion but when people know that fact, expect them to take you a lot less seriously when you discuss about it. Don’t know why you’re getting defensive when he just called you out for how it was.
You can spout this “well, I discovered this” and “I thought that” all day but don’t expect anyone to give a damn.
my bad, thought I was talking to someone with a brain. won’t make that mistake again.
yeah, didn’t mean dudes were perfect or anything, mb if it sounded like that. on the contrary, since it’s SF4 more mistakes might happen. all i was tryin to say is that the system’s a hindrance if you let it be
good point. another one, who says the casual players will stay casual?