There is not much Capcom can “dumb down” about that. 
I don’t think it’s a generational thing. People aren’t any more sensitive to losing today than they were years back. The difference is now most of the losing happens over the internet. The anonymity gives the loser the courage to say shit they’d never say to somebody’s face in an arcade.
I don’t mind a game being noob friendly as long as its not overdone. SF4 may have some BS moments but it doesn’t take a decent amount to skill to play.
Yeah, Capcom sucks!
I’m glad I play other fighters like KOF, Tekken, BlazBlue CS, Guilty Gear, VF, Arcana Heart, ect.
At least those companies still cater to the hardcores.
Well BB still has some casual friendly aspects here and there, but it’s not as bad as SF4, SF4 is just so dumb down is not even funny, it’s actually annoying!
Maybe you all should switch to new fighters by the other companies.
You guys should look forward for the new MK, Ed Boon was saying in an interview that the game is dedicated for the hardcores.
The internet dumbed down players! :bluu:
Then how could Prima get paid for making there books with the pretty pictures and doing tier separation before metagame has been established.
Honestly though the way i feel about the casual vs hardcore thing is this. Casual is a marketing term for what we used to call intuitive. Games have been getting easier since forever. Go play any nes game, then keep going up the line snes etc. now you got piss easy wii. Its part of advancement, keeping with the times. If the challenge is what you seek you will find it. Play your tourney level players use the hardest difficulty when you play games. Whatever. We cant get angry because the community is growing though. We should be fucking thrilled that fighting games are heading full steam ahead into the future. We should be happy that folks are sharing our interests and be accepting of the development changes taking place to accommodate new players. Plus if its making our life easier why complain? No one who drives a Lexus complains that it can park itself. Maybe your not seeking true challenge. This line of thinking means you are seeking greater advantage over a potential opponent through cowardice. You would be hiding behind counter intuitive mechanics if you have these complaints? If a new player beat you by using an exploit should you not aim to be in-exploitable. Remember my friends, be water.
Wouldn’t pretty much every competitive game other than fighting games fall under that heading? Oh… well and competitive Guitar hero too >_>
You’re right, a game with no execution requirement and no strategy whatsoever involved would be utter crap. Not really relevant to the topic though.
edit:
This guy wins.
This comes from the more modern generation of people who want everything spoonfed to them with minimal work involved, if any at all. People want to be good at everything without trying or practicing. It’s the reason why you have shit like kids sports with dumb parents and coaches giving both teams an award or a trophy because “We don’t want the losing team to feel bad they lost, it will lower their self esteem”. It’s not even so much casuals ruining these games, as a casual who really cares to get good at something will keep trying til they get it right. This is just a case of lazy people who want shit handed to them on a silver platter, and god forbid the game requires them to actually use the training mode that’s included. Making some stuff more simple and not needlessly complicated is fine, dumbing things down to try and make it so someone who never practices or even tries can win against people who do practice is bullshit. Some of these morons then try and say “Unlike you I have a life, I don’t have all day to be learning these moves”, as if going in practice mode and learning how to play the game takes so much time you can never have a life.
as everyone before me said, good post
it’s BECAUSE I agree with your story that I think people, especially the hardcore gamers, should just accept the changes happening in newer FGs. being unable to accept these changes is a hurdle. this is the route they’re gonna go, jump that shit or quit
i’ve still yet to play SF4 but i’ve heard about how ridiculous the shit is, to the point where doing shoryuken motion + punch doesn’t give you a shoryuken. i remember one guy in another thread mentioning a stupid hardcore gamer being stuck on that particular hurdle, unable to adapt, saying “I’m inputting a shoryuken, so one should come out”. I remember hearing of another gamer being furious at 3S because shoryuken doesn’t protect him well from anti-air in 3S cause people will just parry it; he felt it should be immune to parry and that 3S sucked because of it. what you guys don’t understand is… all of this shit is YOUR problem. it’s caused by YOUR mindset. it’s not an actual problem; you’re just so set in your ways that you honestly believe it is. in other words… you are, in essence, a mother fucking scrub. stop letting whatever you believe hinder you.
edit: though I did quote Atryu, this was more of a response to people saying shit like “games shouldn’t be noob friendly!”
I don’t get what you guys are talking about as far as shit getting easier and people not liking challenges. Super Mario Sunshine was an ass load harder than any of the NES Mario games, with all those obstacle courses. And Ninja Gaiden on the Xbox was harder than the NES trilogy with the possible exception of The Ancient Ship of Doom. And that was only because the game enforced a continue limit, which even back then was a shitty way to make a game harder. Not to mention that modern games tend to be much longer than their NES and SNES counterparts so even if there is a drop in difficulty the time investment either balances out or the modern game still takes longer just for requiring 15-25 hours. The original Castlevania is a challenge but can be finished in 20 minutes. The easier but longer Nintendo DS ones take multiple hours. That’s not exactly spoonfeeding when you’re putting in the time.
Even with fighting games, they’ve gotten more complex on the whole. Just frames, Guilty Gear’s 30 different meters, and overflowing subsystems. I’d call that pretty demanding. There’s not exactly much of a reason to look at the early days and think they were necessarily better. Unless you consider KOF demi-god bosses like Igniz the pinnacle of gaming bliss.
Today is no different from yesterday other than now people talk via Bluetooth headsets over PSN instead of standing at a cab. People complain about the same shit to much the same level. They’re just more abrasive about it now because they don’t have to look anybody in the eye.
Journey back to 1991 and hand the World Warrior fanbase Xbox Live and watch just how fast you see “fuck u looser hancuffin me with that bitch guiel! lern 2 play a real character asswhole!”
Just reading the thread title and going to quick reply, the justification is keeping peoples interest. In the arcade days you could get away with making hardcore games. If kids are going to spend their time in arcades, they’re going to learn the games. Period.
To keep peoples interest on console, you have to make it accessible or most people will move on to the next game at the blink of an eye. You have to keep them happy unlocking stupid shit. You have to reach as wide a base as possible because even adding all the fluff to keep people busy, still most will move on to the next game.
And no, online will never be a real substitution for arcades no matter how well it plays or how many features there are. Online is the ghetto arcade and always will be. being the shit at arcades means something. Being the shit online doesn’t.
I do think making controls easier can be a great thing. However I think if you’re gonna do that, don’t do it in such a way that completely fucks with how the move is done. I heard way too much how the way the “easier commands” were set up, that it made it way too easy to accidentally do the wrong move instead of the one you intended. That’s not easier, that’s just sloppy.
when you’re doing shit like qcbx2+PPP expecting Rose’s U2 and you get either EX Soul Throw or a Super instead, something’s wrong.
though we can go all day on problems with SF4 but we can also go on with problems in other fighters. Though Tony and omfg kinda nailed what’s left to even discuss. People can’t take an hour out of each day to lean the simple basics of a fighter now because they want things to come in a matter of booting up the game. When it’s easier to just df+df+P all day when your blocking a string, yea I can see why anyone can play and win and think it’s a “fun game”.
No one can REALLY complain about a game being too hard though. None of them are even touching a VF game. I’m sure if arcades were still big here and VF5 was as big in the states like the VF1-VF2 days, new players would be quick to whine after 1 match then head on back to SF4 because “I can win in that game”. It’s this type of mentality we’re getting with most of the new faces and it’s not a healthy look on both your gaming and real life goal.
VF is not THAT hard.
why should players accept things they don’t like? I’m not going to play a game that doesn’t give me enjoyment.
These 2 examples have FUCK ALL to do with eachother. The first is a problem with SF4s flawed input recognizion, you said yourself you havent played it so you wouldn’t know. If the game says to do A to get moveA but the way the inputs are read you’d sometimes get moveB even though you did A, that’s a problem with the game. It’s way to easy to get unintended moves out in SF4 which creates a weird paradox of lenient execution creating an execution barrier to getting the proper moves out. It’s just bad design.
The second is simply a move property that has changed because it’s a different game. That’s just a matter of liking the type of gameplay the game promotes.
Things can be so simple that it makes playing right needlessly difficult, frustrating, or even boring just as things can be so needlessly difficult that playing right becomes time consuming (like a week of playing time to get a single link down) or Frustrating. In other words, difficulty in of itself is not automatically a good thing just as simplicity in of itself is not automatically a good thing.
@ Tony
What i mean is that if you want to be challenged and your that good you should be playing against people who are within your league. If your being beat by players who are less experienced than you, your not as good as you may have thought. Instead of making excuses and bashing the games we as a community have asked for why not improve. The problem is not with the casual community. Casual is defined by someone who plays games 10 or less hours a week its a marketing demographic. Core is someone who is defined by playing 30-50 hours per week. The problem is with core gamers you think casual gamers bitch about how fun or accessible the game is? The only thing there complaining about is how they get verbally abused by core gamers every time they speak.
Also I see what your saying Tony. There are some examples of games that are still difficult. But i difficulty and length of content are two different things the difference is if a game has 10 to 15 hours of content but isnt so hard your still going to beat it provided you spend the time to do so. A hard game is one that requires skill and by not having said skill you may NEVER accomplish the goal of completing that game no matter how little content it may have.
oh no it’s not. But casual americans like things easy from the jump. VF isn’t easy from the jump. Or rather, you have to actally learn how to play it to understand the full extent of it.
Why, sport? Because you’d beat their ass in real life?
Never ceases to amaze me how readily people say things like this without realizing that’s what it basically boils down to. Even funnier that it’s said by people who don’t even have the misguided chutzpah to say they’d beat someone’s ass in real life.
These kids today aren’t AS AWESOMELY HARDCORE AS MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEyawn
didn’t say that, i said “jump that shit or quit”. so you can either try to get over whatever problem you have with it, or you can give up and play something else.
I’ll put it this way: I’ve never seen Daigo whiff a shoryuken. said bad design you mentioned is nothing but a hurdle. it’s not as if there’s no way to do the moves you’re talking about, there’s just a different way of doing them. with as many specials as Viper does in a few seconds, if that input problem was serious I don’t think I’d see people playing her like that. many players seem to do them just fine regardless, so you can’t tell me that no one is out there adapting to this shit
the people in both examples are scrubs that want to have it their way, but they’re letting their beliefs hinder them. instead of creating a way to get over whatever problem they got, they just whine about it. the thing I have a problem with isn’t even that they want their way without work. what gets me is that they think they’re ENTITLED to it
I’m not saying you can’t be frustrated by a change, all I’m saying is adapt to it. when I got TvC, I learned that Mega Man’s mega buster doesn’t charge up extra hits over time and stops charging when you got hit. I also learned his machine gun can be beaten out by fireballs, rapid attacks (Chun Li’s hyakuretsukyaku), and even some normals (Zero’s forward strong). his machine gun super doesn’t hit low like it does on the previous TvC. I also thought that shield of his sucked since it’s single hit, has startup, and not the highest priority move or anything so hitting with that was kinda unrealistic. and that’s just a few of the changes that annoyed me at first. but then I adapted.
his mega buster is not only very easy to charge, its sheer power makes that hit change not even matter. you can use that move in so many new ways… for one, the fully charged blaster beats out every other fireball in the game, for two you can combo people while you’re on the other side of the screen, for three you can use it to defend and build up meter, and four it helps him do his highest damaging combos. Mega Man can do like 30 bil dmg without baroque or assists because of that move. as for the machine gun, it’s a great move to spam if you want to trap them into using specific actions (ex. fireball, super, quick sj air dash), for last hits, safe attack (if you use it correctly), zoning (somewhat), and even a kind of mid-range comboing. the super machine gun lets you charge the mega buster for free, it’s instant and it can even beat out other supers like shinkuu hadouken. as for the shield, that’s another key move to helping him doing his highest dmg combos
I just think it’s funny that hardcore gamers portray themselves as people who play games because they like to adapt and dominate, and then they shun those who don’t want to do that and want an easy way out… but then they complain about shit in a way that makes them exactly like the people they say they don’t like.