Here’s something I’ve been wondering and wonder what everyone else around here thinks.
What if a company (Capcom, SNK, etc.) released a new game today (not a sequel) that had:
-Great 2D (not 3D models on 2D plane) graphics (think the new KOF12 and 13, but without the SNK “fuziness”, LOL. Or even Blazblue).
-Lots of bright colors and shiny, flashy, lights on special moves for the masses.
But for gameplay played like SF2, in as:
-revolved around spacing, zoning, and poking
-had basic chain and cancel combos like SF2 games (3,4,5 hitters instead of crazy 8-32 hit, hit-confirm juggle combos).
-Only had special moves (2-4 per character) and maybe supers. No EX moves or 13 different gauges and bars to keep track of.
-No parries, or focus cancels, or guard cancel front steps, etc.
-No huge windows on doing special moves, reversals, etc (only SF4 does this out of all the new FG’s, I really don’t think it was necessary).
Basically what if SF2 was a brand new game that released today (but had graphics that meet today’s standards)? Would it be successfull or would it be deemed “too simple” because it didn’t have 25 hit combos and Super Special Extra Revenge moves, etc.?
I think tight, good gameplay would win out and it would be commercially successfull as long as it
A.) Looked good
B.) Was actually marketed (hello SNK!).
c.) Had some interesting (but not too weird) characters
- licence game perhaps?
I think what you describe is basically what HDR was intended to be (somewhat with the updated graphics). If you mean going beyond that, maybe upping the framerate and giving it some flash then I’m not sure. I think the reason ST/HDR is fading is because it’s brutal. I think a lot of people moved to SFIV because back on HDR they would struggle against the few good players left, there are now many more scrubs in SFIV so they feel better about themselves because they are winning more.
I think you could give it the sexiest graphics ever, best sound and what not, but if you don’t have massive combos (a measure of skill for scrubs), cinematic moves (fuck yeah I looked like Daigo with that ultra comeback) or a bigger variety of options, people will just disregard it.
These are the biggest complaints I hear from scrubs about HDR, that the gameplay is dated because you can’t do big combos, or that it’s unfair or cheap because of things like ToDs or tick throws, or the difficulty of reversals.
Basically the reason why SFIV is popular is because it takes anything that scrubs didn’t like about ST and makes it easier. Reversals are easier. Combos are easier. Comebacks are easier. Less chance of dizzy. Rounds last much longer etc etc.
Sorry to kind of shoot (what is a nice idea) down, but there are reasons people play IV and not ST/HDR, and it’s not because it’s a better game.
Let’s look at it a different way. Let’s lift the ST/HDR engine and drop it straight into IV’s graphics and sound engine. It has the same character models, similar animations (would have to be changed a bit), same remixed music, but all the gameplay remained the same. We will market this as Street Fighter 5. Will it sell? Yeah 'cause of the hype? Will it last? Maybe with us guys who are still playing ST/HDR, but all these new scrubs who bought it will drop it because it’s too hard, too brutal, too cheap and too simple and will go back to SFIV.
If a scrub plays a good player in ssf4, he is still gonna get destroyed. random ultra can’t save him.
So I don’t agree that scrubs like ssf4 because they have a better chance of winning someone better than them.
It has everything to do with flashy 3d images, 1080p, animation and what not.
A lot of people still play counter strike. But nowadays, all the COD, Halo, etc would not sell if it is not flashier than the previous version.
To be honest, ssfiv’s (overall) execution bar is higher than ST/HDR.
Single special moves in ST/HDR are harder to execute than SF4, sure.
But compare with the multiple 1 frame links + FADC cancel that you need to master and perform 99% of time to compete at high level, ST/HDR require much less practice time.
This would be an interesting question to pose to the Fighting Game Discussion forum, rather than just on the HDR forum, where the bias is going to be towards SF2 style of play.
Most people dont have the patience, determination or heart, to get beat to death over and over in ST HDR, by the most frustrating tactics, strats and traps, and still come back for more (seemingly unfair) beatings.
Most people dont come online for a face full of frustration, and thats what HDR/ST is.
Nostalgia plays a huge part in why we persevere, ive wanted to be good at SF for 15yrs.
If SF2 were released today, then it would probably get tournament play, but probably wouldn’t last long. SF2 is played, due to nostalgia, and being very quick to run in tournaments. SF2 after 1995 was always a side game (not a side-tournament, mind you, but a game that lacked the competitive popularity, compared to SFA2, SFA3, SF3 series, CvS series, MvC series, GG series, Tekken series (in those games primes, of course)). Even during the '00s, the only time you’d see ST played was in majors, rarely local tournaments and few regionals. One thing that SF2 has that those other games don’t (except MvC2, which is fading bad, and maybe Tekken, due to the upgrades), is the consistency of being played in tournaments to present day. No other game (think about every game ever played, from Computer Space and Pong to present day) has lasted as long as SF2 in terms of competition. None.
People would download the demo, get their asses handed to them by someone who has been playing the demo for a few days longer, then immediately delete the demo.
Gamers today seem less tolerant of high learning curves, or getting destroyed without mercy in fighting games. They want button mashers, mistake forgiveness, plus easy pick up and play.
SF2 to me is like chess, easy to learn over time, nearly impossible to truly master and one bad move can mean game over. That is what makes it so much fun and maddening at the same time. perhaps it is also why it isn’t so popular with the next generation.
I like Zero1’s SFV idea. I actually think if you did that, put in some great training modes and most importantly of all - some really good skill-based matchmaking system - I think it would work, way more than SFIV does. Personally I would want to adjust some of the easy to do, hard to counter things like tick-throws in some way. I can understand why new players struggle with them so much in SF2. Personally I don’t mind SFIV for any of the things is makes easier than SF2, I don’t like it for the things it makes harder, and the way it changes the type of skills needed quite a bit
I agree with papasi - weaker players don’t really stand a chance at ANY fighting game vs much stronger players. This is inherent with any skill-based competitive game. Could you get into chess if you had a good chance to be facing a grandmaster every time you played it? Could you get into tennis if every time you tried to learn it, you were up against Fedorer? It’s pretty much what every fighting game does these days. It’s such a shame. Heh, this is why I write about this all the time
‘Cinematic stuff’ is a tricky one. People definitely want this in general, even though its usually a bad idea for a competitive vs game. I think the best bet is just to have really really nice graphics. Do something flashy with KOs or post-KOs so it doesn’t interfere with the actual interactive bits of the game though. Something like MK’s fatalities actually has some mileage here IMO.
Big combos are an interesting one. I wonder why new players say they want them - especially considering they are more likely on the receiving end of them! I guess there’s some element to softening the competition whereby you can lose “but at least I did that combo”. I’m really not sure of the appeal of combos though in fighting games. IMO the combo style of play is far more suited to all the rhythm action stuff and guitar hero kind of things we already have masses of. Yet it just seems that all fighting games have gravitated this way.
Having lots of options is always good for a game. As long as there is decent balance -which will almost always involve huge dev involvement and patches and stuff we just NEVER see from fighting game developers - this is all good. The trouble is that all the options that have been added to fighting games have almost universally also added more execution complexity. I actually like the concept of basic FAs (NOT FADCs) here.
I think the real big major thing comes down to doing far better to introducing players to the real elements of the competitive game in a softer manner than “go online and get your ass kicked”, and “search the internet to learn the game noob!”. Think of all the things StarCraft II does to get players into the competitive side of it - tutorials, training modes, proper challenges (not these stupid combo things in SFIV), proper team vs modes, and most of all great matchmaking system. I don’t see why you couldn’t apply all of this to any fighting game.
Starcraft 2 seems to be the game to hop to right now for me. I am usually not loyal to genres and will look for the current most competitive popular game and focus on that for fun. Since I have loads of original Starcraft experience and since I am already really good at that game Starcraft II was easy to do some higher level play with.
I can do all the build orders and play well, I just can’t maintain the high APM (actions per minute) levels the korean players have and that has always been my weakness. Street Fighter was great because it did not require nearly as high APM.
The other thing I am noticing is the community factor SF2 has over other games. That is one of the biggest draws. SSF4 does not have this nor Starcraft 2. The original Starcraft had it due to the chat channels. As close as some may feel the HDR community is on Xbox Live (I disagree), the GGPO ST community seems to be even closer and if GGPO never takes that game away then ST will probably outlive HDR due to the community factor.
The ST community as a whole is also more mature and nicer because going back to HDR would lead to dealing with a lot of annoying people while ST you are always welcomed back with people who overlook things and they just want to have a good time. My loyalty may go to ST after all not because of the gameplay. It may go there due to the better community.
Most of the best players on ST like Ganelon are really helpful and they will help you play better at the game. On HDR they either don’t respond to my messages or give me a negative response back such as I am using turbo when I am saying gg when I am not.
Basically to answer the original question the game probably would not sell as well and the community would have to be strong to get it to keep going and going.
The funny thing is I find SCII an even harder game to get new players into than Street Fighter. Due to it being put on the crazy (for me) fastest speed setting now, I find the APM requirements simply way too hard for me to be any good at it. But I still enjoy it and I love the stuff surrounding the game at least. Also I can enjoy FFA and team vs games even though the 1v1 is too hard for me (I’m stuck in the bottom league since beta, my APM is about 30, and I play Zerg which makes the APM requirements even harder. Yeah I should switch race really :-/ ).
Czarfighter - As for community etc on XBL… you need to use your friends list & voice chat! My biggest complaint with XBL is the 100 friends limit. I want more than that for HDR alone. But, play what you enjoy. Who you play with can be as important as the game itself at times, agree with that 100%!
GGPO seems kind of like Starcraft having something called ICCUP. Really good players would go there and the connections were much better. There would also be really good korean players on there with 400+ APM. The casual players never find out about both servers so you don’t have to filter through them. I remember ICCUP having a ranking system with seasons though while GGPO does not have one.
Also always use the fastest speed they offer. All the tournaments are played on that speed and is more fun that way. Zerg can lead to more APM because there are more units to control.
When starting out try and give some 3v3s or 4v4s a try. People can help you out or save you while you work on build orders and on trying to raise your speed and APM. Make sure you learn all hotkeys for your race and stick with your favorite race so you are not overwhelmed. Learn the number hotkeys so you can set a group of units to say 1 or 2 and set other number hotkeys for your buildings. Cycling through these hotkeys will get you faster and improve APM. Also look up build orders from the best players on youtube.
There used to be pro 2v2 but Starcraft is pretty much all 1v1 now at the highest levels of play.
I actually wonder how much bigger HDR would have been if it had been a proper retail/on-disc game rather than a download. As it is, it’s hidden away somewhere in the market place, and to be honest I never even look there. A game on disc, sat on a shop display practically promotes itself.
You know what? Give me one final iteration of ST/HDR. Put it on disc.
Give me the ability to see inputs, save replays (and watch with hitbox display), mix and match costume colours (or a colour editor), an online training mode and as per Remy’s suggestion, interactive tutorials on reversals (eg. a dummy set to tick throw so you can try reversals or counter throws), and maybe a SFIV like trial mode with useful combos.
Give us the ability to change the upscale algorithm on the classic sprites, and give us back the classic backgrounds too for those who want the complete ST look and sound, but with the remixed gameplay. I also like the fight request in SFIV, so allow arcade and training mode to be interrupted with online requests. Also give me the option to set a max ping for lobbies, or limit it to location, and the ability to disable Akuma (or better yet fix him). And I’d like to steal the idea for team battles and the replay channel from SFIV. Finally Xbox vision camera support somewhere in the far corners, that should put to bed all the arguments about turbo.
It might not coax all the SFIV players away, but I think it will help keep the few HDR players that were “interested and moved on” hooked.
It’s a dream, but I wouldn’t care if it cost £100+ as long as people were playing it and there were decent connections. I mean shit, I’ve been playing HDR constantly for almost 18months. No game has ever lasted me that long or given me such retarded value for money.
Totally agree that ST GGPO community is great. There are a lot of shit talkers (won’t name names) but overall it is a very pleasant place to chill.
I have played HDR XBL a few times (I paid 1 year gold and only spent less than 2 days on XBL this past year), although you see a list of players there, you can’t chat with them (ok, maybe sending message but it’s very indirect) and you can’t voice chat unless you’re in the same room.
BTW, text chat also allows you to post links and people have always post youtube gameplay links and SRK links there and they are helpful as well.
Plus you don’t have to actively engaged in a conversation but just watch what people are talking about, and that is fun as well.
I actually disagree that putting that game on a disc would have been a good move. My experience is the opposite: downloadable games get impulse bought way more often than disc games, and I don’t have to deal with the hassles of finding a shop having the game, getting there within opening hours, etc. Meanwhile I (and many others) often just push a few buttons and blam! the game is bought and playable. Not to mention that downloadable copies are straight-up much more profitable for the developer.
I can’t remember the last time (if any) where I decided to buy a game because I saw it sitting on a store shelf. When I buy disc games, I know before entering the store that I want them.
Pleasant overall? I’m constantly amazed at the use of childish, racist, and homophobic epitaphs that are used casually in the GGPO ST chat room. It’s downright offensive.
The crazy part of it (to me at least) is that some of the most talented players are the worst offenders.
I played on GGPO basically everyday for a year or so before HDR came out and I found the troll to decent human being ratio to be about the same as XBL, if not worse. I don’t get on GGPO much anymore since HDR is out, couple times a month, but when it do it looks about the same.
I do like the chat room set-up of GGPO (which you can also do on PS3 by setting up a chat room). None of my sticks have mics so voice chat on 360 doesn’t do me any good. I sometimes have more fun on PS3 just shooting the breeze with all the cool SF players in the chat room then I do playing, LOL.
Thelo: I will re-post this topic in the FG thread, I thought about originally posting it there but figured 75% of the responses would be worthless and it would just turn into HDR vs. ST vs. SF4. I wanted to see what the responses from this forum would be first (and I wasn’t disappointed, lots of good discussion). Well see.
Good points no doubt. I just wish they would promote it somewhat so people are like, “Hey, that looks cool” rather than having to hear about it word of mouth or stumble across it randomly.
Well, I don’t recall people like TechMonkey, brian, ganelon, T_O_S, Cigarbob and a few others saying over-the-top crap, TBH. When people write crap, it is usually like 1-2 among the same 6 annoying people who are not on that often.
Everyone on GGPO happens to be talented, I was only dominant in a set against that LaSwagga guy… ever since then I have a tendency to win about 1 out of every 10 matches I play…
The best of the best on GGPO aren’t offenders though…
EDIT: I have to play HDR late at night for quality competition, I get lots of Akuma’s and rage quitters… I don’t sandbag either because it hurts a player more than helps when you go easy…they don’t learn the correct tactics to use in a matchup when you just fool around…
<-Likes making small lobbies, no more than 3 man lobbies
Heh, this is why I write about this all the time 