Sorry but that’s not true, you forget how slow the ultra is and even in Super people had adapted, especially the shoto army.
If you want it to stay as a charge move fine but if so, speed that shit up big time. There is no reason for him to be penalized twice, first by being the slowest ultra in the game and second by having to add charge time to that.
I’ll ask again: What is Ryu supposed to do if Bison starts walking forward and has a motion U2? What could any shoto do?
I’ll tell you what they can’t do:
That limits options to walking forward vs Bison’s superior normals and hoping to focus dash through/focus crumple, or walking backwards into a corner. No more c.mk>hado to harass Bison is an enormous concern for FB characters. If Bison were to stand contently in s.mk range then there are zero options for the shoto other than to just eat the U2 and get it out of the way. That sounds awfully similar to Seth’s and Ryu’s Ultra/Super trap they used to have, doesn’t it?
Now I’ll reiterate: What match ups - instead of skewing heavily into Bison’s favour - would U2 being a motion actually help? None of his hardest match ups, or any of the only ‘slightly’ difficult ones.
I also can’t agree with U2 being faster. What fireballs can’t you catch in its current form? Guile’s? Okay, but you’re going to have to shave more than a couple frames off U2 to catch his lp booms. High Tigers, Max Outs and Gouken FBs are pretty difficult too so a couple frames being taken off U2 would be a minor buff in those match ups, but every other fireball in this game can be reacted to and caught. U2’s main purpose was to punish a sloppy fireball and it is working as intended.
I don’t see why there is any need to change U2 in its current form. It fulfills its intended purpose of anti-fireball and a buff will not help hard match ups get easier (unless it’s an insane frame buff to help vs Guile). There are much better buffs to be asked for than one to U2; ones that will improve Bison’s overall game plan much more effectively on a broader scale.
To be honest, if they made U2 a motion then I’d fully expect to have start up frames added.
@ShadowOS
I believe people wanted the reduced startup on U2 only if Capcom decided to keep its current input.
I never thought ssf4’s U2 was something broken, the only thing that made it a bit random was the crossup ability. Can’t they just remove the crossup property entirely and go back to its original input?
I agree about the startup being fine as it is, you can totally react to fireballs and punish them if you’re good.
U2 was meant to make Bison a little less predictable when not having a charge. Nobody with a brain would throw fireballs at Bison when he’s holding back. When he’s walking forward, he has no options except focusing, which can be dangerous.
U2 partially solved this problem. Making it a charge move goes against the very reason why it was made in the first place.
So I’d say:
-keep the startup
-back to original input
-reduced damage
-reduced range / automatically tracks the opponent so you can’t use it to escape
Some of the shit in that capcom thread is hilarious. You would think Bison is bringing home majors ever week with all the nerfs some people are asking for.
Nobody including myself has asked for anything that would break him. An anti-air is the most out outrageous thing I’ve seen. We aren’t asking for a braindead AA just something that makes people think about getting hit out of the air.
^
We can flip it like this. What Bison can do if Ryu is setting on a life lead? jump ? DP and ultra. try to get close ? Low forward into fireball.
Just as we bison player have no safe approach against Ryu . Ryu players should be thoughtful when to throw a fireball when bison have ultra. Really Bison Ultras rarelylands which made us Bison players forget that we even have an ultra. Giving him an Ultra that lands often is by no means something broken. The majority of the cast has somewhat useful Ultra except for Bison.
I agree. He needs a decent anti-air to keep people on the ground without the need to guess. It will improve his match-up against Zangief.
Some of the suggestion and nerfs are quite funny. You come to think that Bison have a 3-frames invincible reversal that leads to big damage and can be made safe for two meters. He doesn’t have anything crazy as that and people still think he is too good.
I think I might register and post these changes:-
1- Don’t Nerf Him !
2- Don’t Nerf Him !
3- Don’t Nerf Him !
4-Allow Bison to connect both hits of ExPC after Hell attack.
5- Make the Stun for all Psycho crushers to be 200 stun points. (also improve the front Hitbox of regular Psycho Crushers)
6-Fix his Hitbox problems against Sakura.
7-Make devils reverse safe on block (1- ), It is too slow,risky and has a bad hitbox. The least you can do is to make it a safe approach for Bison if it is miraculously blocked.(Honda butt slam is safe even though it cross-up)
8-Ultra 2 back to motion with faster start-up. (No I don’t think it will break him, It will give him an ultra that works. which the majority of the cast have anyway)
9- Improve Skull divers start-up and active frames. The move as it is now don’t work as it supposed to be.
10- Improve jumping forward punish (hell attack)
11- Make it so that if Bison hits a character in the air with regular Headstomp he can also juggle with exSkull divers
12-Make him wear cape on Tuesday.
or Skip all that and just give him a decent anti-airs and ultra.
No, you can’t really flip it at all.
Bison can still use s.mk effectively even when Ryu has a life lead since it’s about equal (maybe a pixel or two more?) range than Ryu’s c.mk. This allows you to still play footsies effectively, and you can also dash through his fireballs to get into that sweet spot OR in his face if he’s sloppy. During all these c.mk>FB vs s.mk gymnastics is when bigger mistakes are made that you can exploit. You don’t have to jump vs Ryu if he has a life lead.
Giving Bisons U2 a motion would make it so Ryu literally cannot do anything. It would be the equivalent of giving Ryu’s c.mk a training square more reach and a slightly faster FB to keep it a block string. THEN Bison is [practically] hopeless vs Ryu and has to jump in. You’re throwing the whole MU out of whack.
And again, since I’m not getting an answer:
That’s the idea behind the Ultra , You make it look like Ryu will be hopeless with this change. St.MK have pretty wide Hurtbox and (-3) on block. While there is no denying that it is a good move, it is not actually very threatening. Ryu players could easily counter poke with Cr.MP (or St.MP), it will beat out St.MK most of the time. There are many ways Ryu players could get around the ultra , They can bait it with fireball FDC… Etc. They just will be forced to be more thoughtful and careful when throwing a fireball while Bison have Ultra.
The points is to have them play differently when Bison have Ultra. They will not be by any means defenseless.
The point is, it is a change that will make Bison have an accessible Ultra that can be used whenever the chances arise. It may not equalize any match-up but it will make Bison very threatening against fireball characters (Akuma, Ryu,…). Compared to the majority of the cast Ultras, I can’t See why this change will be considered too much.
Ultra 2 being a motion again isn’t gonna threaten good shotos enough to widely turn matches against Bison’s favor. If anything that change would make a lot of match ups more even because Bison already has to adapt to when people get meter/revenge a lot more than they do for him. Big whoop, bison has meter. Bait the EX-Psycho and punish or burn it.
@Shadow
Ryu’s cr.mk->fireball vs Bison’s st.mk is still in Ryu’s favor. While it may be true that Bison’s mk has more range, the fact is that it does such insignificant damage it’s not even noticeable. Ryu, on the other hand, can FADC his fireball and deal large amounts of damage / get a knockdown.
Having a motion Ultra might not be beneficial to his bad matchups, but it sure improves his general gameplay, which is rather weak right now. I personally didn’t want motion U2 to improve his bad matchups, but as a general change.
Anyway, I read some of the suggestions in the Capcom-Unity thread, and I wasn’t surprised to see people requesting nerfs. As long as Bison is such a noob killer, people will always ask for it, and Capcom will most likely listen to these people.
The question is, what could they do to make him less effective against scrubs, so they stop complaining, while leaving him untouched at high levels?
For example, I read about people complaining about his headstomp being too spammable. I personally never use it, and so do high level players. So why not do everyone a favor and make that move even more shitty? It has no impact in tournament-level matches anyway, scrubs will be happy and developers will be able to focus on his real weaknesses.
Remember that noobs are the reason why Bison has received so many nerfs since vanilla SF4.
I know people here will disagree about nerfing an already underpowered move, but what else can we do to make scrubs shut up and let competent players express their opinions?
Motion ultra is fine. It did no damage anyways.
If it returns, Capcom will definitely make sure to nerf it back to its original dmg.
Bison will be far from broken, especially considering all the other top characters.
Just sent my suggestions in.
I highly doubt Capcom will read through the whole thread,
but at least I can say I stood up for my character.
Doesn’t really make a lot of sense. If Bison is a noobkiller, then Cammy and the rest of the top tier are absolutely the bane of noob existence, since they force high level blocking defense and (defensive) zoning, all while under incredible pressure. People always need to think about Bison in the context of the rest of the field. If Bison is scary in ANY situation, the top tier is wildly more effective and scary. Still reeling from a match against Cammy I just played. It. Is. Ridiculous. I seriously wish I could be a fly on the wall during Capcom’s playtesting phases. What are these people thinking? I REALLY want to know.
How to beat Cammy:
There’s no way they can make U2 motion. Would be way too abusable. Would also erode at the integrity of the charging nature of charge characters.
As for musts:
-EX Psycho Crusher not throwable.
-Another way to combo into U1 (or greatly improve aerial Mpx2)
-Speed up U2 to make it useful
-Improve the utility of devil’s reverse. It’s only good as a mixup/throw gimmick at current. Either allow it to cross up or extend it’s speed or hitbox.
-Improve tracking and speed on air portion of non-ex head stomp. It’s useless if it’s not EX and in the corner. Holding back should allow you to block the move, not allow you a full punish opportunity. It’s a charged move with no invincibility for heaven’s sake.
As for personal desires, I think that Bison’s slide should be a bit safer. Would compromise and shorten the distance of the slide. Most of the other charge characters have a reasonably safe slide or sweep (Deejay, Chun, Blanka), with safe jump opportunities or advantageous positions after the knockdown.
Would like to see cr lk either linkable or more damaging. 100-120ish damage on a bread and butter, easily dropped or mashed through combo? Come on…
Improved St. HP as an anti-air. Buff this too much and it would be godly, true, but the hit box and hurt box of Cr.Fierce make it unreliable. On the other hand, Standing normal fierce surves no purpose and should be eliminated. Speed it up a tad and it gives a better frame trap/combo potential, and doubles as an anti air. Reduce damage as necessary.
Hi folks,
I got requested to mod some of the commonly asked for changes for Bison into the game.
I enjoyed doing this and this way you can see how things would play out if these changes made it in. Checking for overpoweredness, any adverse effects and such.
It’s mainly for demonstration purposes.
** Changes Modified **
U2 back to 2xqcf motion + Reduced stomp height. (Therefore increased punish speed.)
EX Scissors Hard Knockdown
Not Shown EX Crusher Throw Invincibility. (Unsure how to check this - Data says it has 0-14 Throw Invinc already - Edited to 0-60 (Max)
Increased Startup of cr.HP by ~3 frames.
cr.LK DMG increased from 20 to 30.
Redistributed Scissor DMG:
LK - 80 \ 10
MK - 80 \ 25
HK - 90 \ 30
EX - 90 \ 40 (Typo in the request has caused a decrease in Scissors DMG Haha! Sorry consider it fixed now!)
close.st.MP hitstun / blockstun increased by 2 frames.
cr.MK hitbox extended very slightly.
Removed far.st.HP - close.st.HP comes out all the time now.
far.st.MP is now special cancel-able. (Even into Headstomps.)
** Here’s the video demonstrating it **
** I may make this available for people to have a play around with if people want to.
You will NOT be able to go online for obvious reasons - crashes and could wreck your game.
Training mode, Arcade, Versus would be fine. **
We all know how ridiculous Cammy is, no need to repeat it again. However, I feel she’s only good in high level matches. I recently switched to Fei Long because I do much better against good players, but when I go against noobs, Bison is way easier. Why? Because Bison is weak against techiques that are only used at high levels.
For example, you rarely see the mid level player using an option select, which means you’re free to EX PC on wakeup without worrying too much.
It’s when going against people who do use OSs and safe jumps correctly that Bison starts to show his weaknesses. But not all players do, as the majority of them is not interested in high level competition.
Even if it’s true that EX PC is not a good move on wakeup at high levels, it is at mid-low levels. Buffing it would probably make it viable at high level, but also broken for the rest of the players - who are also the majority. And as I already stated some time ago - from a developer’s standpoint, that also means imbalance.
How do you mod the game like that? I would like to learn and mess around with some personal changes.
Have you guys seen alioune’s suggestions:
Amongst other things, here’s what he has to say about light scissors:
knee press lk : 0 on block > -3 on block , increased pushback ,dmg 6030 > 50*30.
*
Ridiculous.
he took his loss from Gagapa to the heart, it was posted on eventhubs too…
Some of the best suggestions I’ve read to date. Good stuff.