As long as someone else sees it, I’m willing to drop it (though it only takes one person). It really is wrong. Anyways, as for myself (@The Beautiful One), I’m not posting anything, you need to put time into figuring out what you are doing wrong. I said previously as a response to you in another post, online doesn’t do anything for you. In the end casuals, online and money matches have a different affect versus tournaments when it comes to mindsets, you are either ready or not. If you are not, then do not expect the world to baby you in situations like this. If you truly care for this game and Bison as a character, you will understand where we are coming from and put time into going through each character and seeing what they have over Bison. If not, as we both said from the start, just pick another character and end it at that.
Sorry if I pulled it too far Duaie, but I seriously needed to say something if no one else was willing to say shit, lol.
Actually, I have to disagree, Hell attack isn’t that great. For one, you said it, “especially when people mess up,” We aren’t concerned with mid-level players who make foolish mistakes, at least I’m not. High level players will rarely give you a chance to land hell attack, and when they do it tends to be a guessing game. Most jumps on Bison will be done safe, crossup, or some position where hell attack gets beat out. And basically every air to air normal beats hell attack clean i.e. Ryu’,s Gouken’s, Seth’s j.mp and we haven’t even began to talk about air throws. The hell attack depends on very specific spacing and perfect timing. There is just no reason for anyone to jump at those moments, they can fight bison just fine without jumping in those instances.
As for Bison’s meter, what I think sucks about him in that department is that due to damage scaling, he gets sucky damage off of an FADC combo. It’s not like dude can do a DP into ultra or something, cough cough.
Hell attack in this game is pitiful overall, which is why i wouldn’t mind it being buffed. However, I don’t trust capcom to buff it enough to make it a valid air to air threat in SF4 which is why i’d rather they just gave him better AA ability elsewhere.
Yo I heard from a friend that Combofiend said that C.hp is going to be faster now for better AA, that its a real AA now, not that slow BS. Apparently he said its confirmed, but the rest is all rumors.
What would be really sick would be to make Bison’s back throw such as it was in SFEX, where you would get bounced off the floor and he could juggle you. That would be cool, but they wont do that at least not for this game.
If they fix skull diver, DR and hell attack, with that AA, I think Bison will be fine.
Sounds to me that you just dont have a clear understanding of the character and you are just talking about your shortcomings. Bison does have his issues but a lot of them arent in this post.
Oh it would be great, but unfortunately, it’s still a rumour we’re talking about. We should just wait and see.
I was watching some Dogura vs Kyoku the other day and realized, man, Bison really has trouble opening up opponents. The only times Dogura did any sort of damage was when Kyoku made mistakes / caught him mashing on crouch techs. He doesn’t have any high/low or left/right mixups whatsoever, or even a shitty overhead to do some damage to turtlers.
I don’t think an overhead would overpower him at all to be honest. Or maybe I’m just asking for too much?
I understand the character just fine, Bub. We are most likely playing different calibers of opposition. But even so not looking for and don’t require the confirmation of unproven internet superstars.
Apparently you dont cause the caliber of players I play are very high level players that have been playing for years. Lets look at some of the complains you posted that are more of a personal issue than a character issue.
You claim Bison has horrible Meter Management. This is a player problem, if you seem not to have meter when you need then perhaps you need to look at what you are doing wrong. I main Bison and one of the things I love about this Character is always having meters for EX moves.
You complain about eating neutral jumps. Bison has 2 great normal moves that stuffs neutral jumps. If you are eating them so much and think its random its not. The players you are playing have adapted to your style of play and are neutral jumping over and over again cause they know you dont know how to handle it. Another example of it being a player issue.
Air to air attacks arent shit, you arent using the correct attack in the air to deal with whatever your opponent is doing. My guess is that Guile is throwing you left and right. Try J.HK next time. Granted his hell attack could have more priority but its still a great tool for those that make the mistake of jumping.
Bison has one of the best and fastest Dash in the game. Your complains make no sense. Its called you are doing it wrong. Anyone that dashes wrong can beat with a jab. That Dudley opponent that shut you down. Well he did just that, shut YOU down.
Granted C.HP has a slow started up and it would be nice if it were buffed but because you dont use it doesnt mean others dont during matches. If you watch any of my matches I use it a lot because I plan ahead. It cant be used on reaction, it has to be used when expecting a Jump in. Sounds like you need more practice.
No gimmicky of free move to trick your opponent makes no sense to me. You are playing the wrong character if this is what you need to win matches. The only thing that I kinda agree with is Bison getting an overhead attack for mix up purposes. Bison is a very straight forward character when it comes to attacking. Anyone good at blocking his attacks can keep him out pretty easy. Psycho Banish would really benefit his game.
Out of your entire post I only completely agree with one thing. Bison’s overall damage is low, making his comeback mechanics come in below a lot of the cast. I hope in the AE 2013 update he gets a damage buff.
Like I said in my other post, most of your complains are personal issues and not a character design issue. Get your game up.
I get a decent amount of mileage out of nj.hk, nj.mk and even nj.hp for air to air.
Can’t really claim I have ever been wanting for meter either, in fact a lot of the time I would dare say I have too much due to FADC combos being weak for Bison still (sitting on full super on too many occasions to count).
It’d be nice if Bison would get instant stun combos off of double FADC. Make him more like SF2 Bison and you wouldn’t even need to touch his damage output since now he can combo into stun, do full focus, and then ultra. Probably wouldn’t make him that much better either.
so first off the bat, with the “horrible meter management” comment TBO made. you guys screaming at the top of your lungs “METER MANAGEMENT IS A PLAYER THING NOT A CHARACTER THING” are being dense. it’s very obvious that he used the term incorrectly, as evidenced by what he said.
just so everyone understands, he meant that bison can be very meter dependent and at the same time the meter doesn’t really do anything effective for bison. other characters can play this game very well without a single bar, and meter is just the cherry on top for those characters.
for example, bison can play footsies just fine without meter, but meter will do nothing for him and add nothing to his play in this situation. meter will add maybe 60 damage to an extended fadc combo, and having some meter might be nice for a well timed exhs but more importantly meter is a must for exsk vs fireballers. in a defensive situation to make anything safe he requires 3 bars, and using it offensively (exsk fadc) doesn’t do much more damage than a standard bnb (if your opponent even did something slower than 13 frames to get hit in the first place). now think how bison plays without meter - bison is helpless under all pressure scenarios (and to be honest, even with meter you’re banking on your opponent not reacting correctly against whichever escape bison tried). his offense is roughly the exact same meter or none
how does ryu play without meter? pretty damn well. his c.mk X hado is an amazing tool, great OS-able specials, he’s got a 3 frame auto-correctable invincible uppercut, fireballs to force mistakes at a distance, and decent inside pressure with quick normals and good hitboxes. now how does ryu play WITH meter? now he gets several ways to combo into ultra (c.mk xx ex hado > ultra, srk fadc ultra, corner tatsu ultra, etc), gets the insane fadc SRK defensive option which doubles as an offensive option and unlocks some even stronger OS’s
understand now? meter with bison doesn’t do much but fill a couple holes in his lacking defensive and offensive arsenal, but a character like ryu gets super charged and would be A-OK without any
regarding the neutral jump discussions
everyone is correct in their assertions made. on the one hand duaie and co. are completely correct in that neutral jumps can be dealt with by reacting to them. honestly many of the times people neutral jump spam me they get a round house or c.fierce for their troubles. on the other hand, bison’s primary pressure tool is l.sk. there have been tons of situations where i smack someone out of their nj 3-4 times, but during the course of a match they still catch an sk. the reward is MASSIVE for n.jumping a scissor kick. so basically bison is supposed to chip and push people to the corner primarily using this sk tool, but there is a very realistic concern that a nj from the opponent will knock bison back into the stone age. it’s not “being predictable” and getting hit, it’s the opponent knowing bison’s limited options and the opponent sprinkling in some low risk high reward tactics. you know random security checks at the airport? they do these because there is little effort and in doing so they may catch a drug smuggler or someone with bad intents. the security officers don’t know that a bad guy is around, and hey some bad guys get away with doing their thing, but doing these checks reap a high reward of completely catching and thwarting the bad guy
now for the “dash game” and cr.jab comments
a way for bison to get a lot of damage is by using his quick dash and to throw (everyone here knows that obviously). TBO was pointing out that all someone has to do to nullify one of bison’s only ‘safe’ ways to get set ups and damage is to play reactionary or just spam jab.
i find the comment about “getting too predictable with dashes” is poor, mostly for the same reason why saying “getting caught with nj when you sk is because you’re being predictable”. there isn’t a high level player alive who doesn’t know to watch out for bison’s dash-throw option. what is bison going to do to you when he’s down on life and you’re content to block and defend? his options are jump in (yeah, right), sk (w/e take the 8-20 chip… or try a nj), poke with s.mk or s.rh (no chip so not a real threat to people just blocking) aaaannnnd dash-throw. dash-throw is just one of many poor options and probably the second easiest to react to (the first being a jump in). spamming jab will shut down dash-throw and probably lead into a combo for the opponent. “predictable” or not, dash-throw is inconsistent and best and a death wish at worst. again, this is simply being aware of bison’s limited options and dealing with them in extremely basic ways which declaws bison in a sense
it’s almost the same concept with makoto where she can’t really do anything without a forward dash, so you just focus your attention on reacting and smashing her when she tries to do it. ta-daaah you beat makoto with the most basic tactic (except in her case if you ever let her in on you there’s a 95% chance gonna die that round)
i think those are all the points you guys talked about before everyone straight devolved into flaming one another so i won’t say much more regarding that mess
this is what really interests me. i’ve always been a strong supporter that bison’s c.fierce in it’s current form is very usable, and an amazing compliment to his s.rh and nj moves as a way of keeping the opponent off you. while it is slow, to be honest you just have to react and you can catch almost every jump in the game that isn’t a divekick and at least trade.
it being sped up is going to help the people who couldn’t use it before, but especially in my mind it’s going to even up the zangief match up above all else. currently even if you’re quick to react with c.fierce, gief’s jf.mk is angled so low that you’ll actually get hit during its final start up frames. c.fierce being sped up by a mere 2 frames would do the trick. anything quicker is just candy to me
then again i 97% dropped this game and the remaining 3% is just waiting to see if there are some sweeping changes to make this game not BS
TBO, nobody insulted you in the first place. The closest thing to an “insult” was us saying you weren’t playing the character correctly, then YOU got all defensive and started insulting us. That’s when people stopped giving you the respect you think you deserved.
Anyway, thanks for clarifying all of TBO’s poorly argumented points, OS. I still disagree on the dash thing, because if you put it that way, he’s not the only one to have that problem. Many characters don’t have a safe way to get in or chip the opponent, hell, even Cammy doesn’t have one. I wouldn’t consider it a weakness honestly.
You’re so full of crap it’s unbelievable. First of all stop speaking in terms of “we” and “us” like you’re the SRK ambassador. I have addressed you and that other douche. You guys have never seen me play, don’t know who I’m competing against, etc. so of course I’m going to reject your stupid assertions about my understanding of the character. And if you think Snake’s posts was even close to neutral, you’re as stupid as you are worthless. I reject on general principle all these high-flying posts about how you personally have no problems with the character, can do anything against any other character and all the rest of the “I’m so amazing” bullshit. Look, I’m never going to give you or anyone any sort of deference about what I know, don’t know, can’t do, understand etc. When GagaPA says Bison has too many bad matchups that he’s going to reconsider using Bison, I’m, you know, going to take that over what Flake Ass-sniffer or whatever his name is says about Bison having 5 bad matchups. Please quit trying to pretend you’re some flawless authority – you will never ever convince me of that. Finally I’ve already stated that Bison may be more viable if you put SSF4 at the center of your life and practice 8-10+ hours a day like some of these weirdos at the pro level, but that he suffers under other circumstances. You’ve never gotten put on blast by an opponent’s neutral jump (especially a fast one like Adon’s)? Or had your rushdown stopped by a 4300+ PP player? Seriously, get the fuck out of here.
Hold on guys, let’s not go fighting each other or letting personal opinions get in the way. Let’s stick to the objective facts of the case about Bison and make arguments that can make use of those facts. We need to stay united as Bison players!
I was wondering, what would happen if charge partitioning was in this game? would it require a whole new re-balance? Probably… but at least charge characters wouldn’t be as limited as they are now. I’m learning Fei Long and thinking to main him (he’s basically the same character but less frustrating), so I realized how much Bison would gain if they allowed him to charge while dashing/moving forward.
Oh no no no no no no. The character’s frustrating??!?!! Don’t you mean your lack of skill and inability to choose the right options in the right situation is frustrating? Surely that’s what you mean!!??
I’ve never denied my frustration with Bison, or that Bison lacks heavily in some areas. For example, the fact that he lacks an AA and the opponent can jump on him almost for free doesn’t have anything to do with player skill, or that his reversal game is not as good as people think, or the fact that being a charge character limits his movement options.
I think you still misunderstand what we meant by saying that what you pointed out is not the character’s weakness. We were not saying Bison has no weakness whatsoever, or that if you find the character frustrating, it’s only your fault.
He CAN be frustrating, nobody is denying this, but for very different reasons than what you complained about.
I hope I was clear enough, sorry if my english isn’t perfect, now let’s move on please.
come now my Bison brother, Duale already apologized for being antagonistic, let’s keep the Bison love going.
Duale,
what do you mean by “charge partitioning?” Bison can charge while dashing. You just hit F,F, hold back and then wait like one more second and you can charge-attack. Or do you mean keep the charge you already had before hand, during a dash?
You know, honestly I don’t dash* as much* as I used to with Bison. I just walk at fools and murder them in the corner.