I would disagree, I used C.HP as a AA option all the time. Granted it needs to be used correctly. I have cleaning stopped Shotos J.HK which in this situation it does trade most often, Deejays L.LK, Cammys dive kicks and J-HK, and ect. I have traded with many others, thus why I believe a better hurtbox for less trade due to the long startup time. Yea i cant use it like a shotos dragon punch but i can use it.
lol @Bison actually getting anything useful
I’ve been in the lab messing with C.HP and have found that if done early it will beat a lot of stuff clean and trade way more than get beat outright. It will even whiff as the jump in whiffs sometimes too.
I’ll be running this at NCR… I’ll trade against a jump all day and take my chances in the ground game. Shave a few frames off this move and it will be pretty damn good.
Gotta be quick with it though a little late and you will get blow up.
Finally another Bison players that has actually tested what Im talking about. You are completely right in how it has to be used. If you are late, you will get blown up.
All I want is just 2-3 frames shaved off the startup that is all slower than most cr.hp used for AA, still takes some timing and skill to use. Yes it can be used, but generally not on reaction. Especially against characters with short jump arcs Gen comes to mind for example, there are others.
Or tldr: It’s almost usable just needs a slight reduction in startup, nothing much
Blacktoof’s Bison mod is pretty modest compared to some of the other characters. EX-spiral -2 on block at worst? Cody gets a 7 frame invincible reversal with EX-CU, and a good backdash?
Oh man.
You SHOULD give up. You’re completely forgetting or ignoring that there are characters with virtually NO WEAKNESSES.
Sorry if I may sound stubborn, but no, that’s not true. Like I said, Cammy isn’t strong because she’s a perfect character, she’s strong because her gameplan works better than others.
For example, her footsie game is just above average if you compare it to other fundamentals-heavy characters. It’s definitely not the best, that’s for sure. And even if it was, rest assured she’s gonna be nerfed anyway.
Bison has his own strenghts, just like every other character, and Cammy has her own weaknesses, just like every other character. The problem is that they’re way less relevant in a game like this.
It’s like developing arm muscles as a soccer player: you have your strenghts, just not where it’s needed. In a vortex/knockdown heavy game like this, Bison’s strenghts are, even if they do exist, way less useful. And that’s also where Cammy’s strenghts shine, and her weaknesses (lack of a strong zoning game and footsies, hard time to get in, no safe way to chip the opponent, no overhead, short throw range, shittiest neutral jump in the game) are way more tolerable.
Saying that giving Bison an AA would just make him on par with the other characters is a wrong reasoning imo. You have to consider the whole picture: Cammy, unlike Bison, doesn’t have such a strong and safe corner pressure, so having an AA to prevent the opponent from escaping isn’t that big of a deal. However, Bison has such a strong corner offense that the opponent NEEDS to have some way to escape. Denying it on paper would make many matchups way too much in his favor.
There are other characters with a similar corner pressure AND with an anti-air: Adon, Fei Long, Rose, etc. However, Rose’s reversal game is so weak it balances out itself. The other two, well, guess what? they’re both top tier. Even though their corner pressure isn’t as good as Bison’s, they do a much better job at keeping the opponent there. And you also have to consider how easy it is for the character to corner the opponent: Fei’s rekkas push way farther than Bison does after a combo, so that’s another variable.
See, you always have to look at balance as a whole. It may not seem like it, but even the smallest things can change a character drastically. Giving an AA to a character that had none before, and still made it to the middle of the tier list, is pretty silly imo.
I keep reading this like you think we are asking for a DP. Well I am not at least.
As far as cr.hp is concerned even shaving down the startup to 9-10 frames will make no difference in the corner situation for the following reasons:
-
It is still slower than st.hk
-
It doesn’t have as much vertical reach as st.hk
-
It is negative on block (-7 if you need to know)
What it would do for us is make it a little easier to use on people jumping in on us, not completely free and it still trades a ton.
tldr: the situation with cr.hp would be the same as st.hk is now in the corner, you have to guess that they are going to jump and do it on prediction (at best, I am not convinced it will even reach at 9 frames before they get away), except in this case if you guess wrong and they block you will be punished.
Yeah I see. However, I still think buffing his j.mp is a better solution, simply because it deals more, much needed damage. And there’s also the fact that Bison’s air to air game is pretty weak as of now.
Just my opinion though. Maybe a mix of both? Or simply both?
I certainly wouldn’t mind both lol
You make interesting points. Do you play online? If so, what’s your PP?
I hardly play online, especially these days, with school and everything. Also I’m italian, and connection isn’t very good here. Last time I played I had around 3.2k PPs
What’s your GT Duaie? We’ve probably played - I’m from the UK.
I play gaet87 a lot, he has a great Bison.
Guys, Combofiend mentioned the bison changes he forwarded to japan. These changes(which are not final) are:-
However, he did not mention anything about fixing Skulldiver or standardize the stun for Psycho crusher nor the suggestion of improving hell attack and Ultra2 or making Ex.SK untechable knockdown:(. Furthermore,the start up of regular Psycho crusher should be decreased and not the EX one in my opinion. Nonetheless, I think these are pretty awesome buffs if it did go through.
What are your thoughts about these changes? How do you think these changes well affect Bison overall? which matchup will improve the best if these changes got through ?
In my opinion, the Zangief/Honda matchup will improve and it will be little bit easier to deal with. Moreover, depending on how good the anti-air is, any matchup where Bison struggle to keep his opponent on the ground will be easier and will allow Bison to play to his awesome ground game.
Cr.hp is an obvious buff, but it’s still prone to trading. Bison will still have problems with the space closer to his head, but overall that’s fine. I still think j.mp is a more interesting buff than cr.hp, gameplay-wise.
When Combofiend mentioned the decreased startup on PC, it wasn’t clear to me that he meant only EX-PC or PC in general, since he seemed confused himself. PC getting decreased startup would be a decent buff, since you would be able to combo lights into LP PC, and then be able to keep charge right next to the opponent as they get up. It would probably make OS U1 much more common.
If he was just talking about EX-PC getting reduced startup, I’m not sure that’s really a buff. In all likelihood, the move will get reduced startup, but reduced invincibility as well. It would be a buff if they reduced the startup by like 4 frames, so that it can catch most meaty jabs, but I don’t see that happening.
As for scissor kicks, it depends on how they distribute the damage. If they tack the damage on the 2nd hit, then Bison’s will still have weak FADC combos. Still useful regardless.
Regarding far mp, if they reduced the startup to 7f, then the overall buff isn’t that great, since cr.mp does pretty much the same thing. far mp will do certain things better, because of its active frames and hitbox position, but overall it wouldn’t be that crazy.
However, if far mp was buffed to 6f startup or less like in SFxT, then that is huge.
-A lot of character specific combos become universal (cr.mp->cr.mk will turn into cr.mp->st.mp)
-weird hitbox stuff will disappear (e.g. crossup combo whiffing on Balrog, Guy, etc)
-Bison will have more time to frametrap and hit confirm damage, since he will usually still be in range for st.lk->far.mp. This improves his game up close.
We’ll see how it goes though, as I don’t expect the developers to take any of these suggestions that seriously.
Honestly they should just make scissor kick +1 on block. Does anyone really think if they gave him +1 or +2 on block scissor kick, he’d really be better than Fei? +2 on block is kinda outrageous, but he needs something that will improve his matchups vs characters like Guile and Honda. Scissors being at advantage won’t make him that much better in terms of matchups. He’ll still wreck certain characters and he’ll still be vulnerable to reversals. He just gets to press his advantage a little bit more and get characters afraid to press buttons against him.
He doesn’t really need a better anti-air. The only characters that he really struggles to antiair are characters that cr. fp won’t beat anyway (e.g. dive kick characters). If you’re going to buff his anti-air at least give it a better hitbox. It’s fast enough if you’re on point.
Predicting every jumpin takes it out of you though in the mindgame and the risk of a trade makes me scared to press buttons sometimes so you just have to eat pressure. A reliable AA would mean you have more resources elsewhere like better spacing for instance. It would really push him up the tierlist imo.
Don’t get me wrong, I know Bison has his weaknesses and I’ve made peace with most of them cos I love his strengths so much but an AA would really complete him for me.
They should change the frames to tech his throws from 8 to 7… like everyone elses. Having low mix up potential they should give us that.
You have a longer time to tech Bison’s throws than other characters?