@ The Beautiful One,
But notice that those other characters don’t have as good Foosties as he does in terms of hit boxes and frames. If you gave him that AA he would be godlike.
Besides by fixing his hell attack (j.mp) instead, you get a combo into Ultra 1 or 2. This is better than an AA because it gives him comeback , which, as you know, he doesn’t currently have.
Hey guys, first time posting here on shoryuken (but I’ve been lurking for a long time). Bison’s my main since vanilla SF4, and after testing the changes on Black-Toof’s mod for about 2 hours I’ve come to these conclusions:
1- close s.HP everywhere:
insanely good anti-air. Works just like a slightly worse cody back s.MP, beats almost every close jump-in, worst case scenario you get a trade, in some very specific cases (sakura’s j.HP) you’ll get beaten clean (but even then there’s a good chance you’ll hit her out of it) .
If capcom added this, Bison’s AA would be really good, maybe TOO good.
2- cr.HP 3 frames faster:
It’s useable now, you don’t need to be a psychic to use it. Not as good as sakura’s or rose’s, but decent. Still loses to deep air moves such as vega j.HK, chun-li j.HK, etc.
Would be a good buff as expected.
3- close.st.MP hitstun / blockstun increased by 2 frames. & cr.MK hitbox extended very slightly:
Close st.MP works nicely as a 3-4 frames frame-trap. But it’s basicaly the same as close st.MK.
counter-hit close st.MP -> st.LK -> cr.MK -> HK.SK = 279
counter-hit close st.MK -> cr.MK -> HK.SK = 274
4- Untechable knockdown on ex.SK:
Didn’t spend that much time trying to find set-ups on this, but surely there are a lot more:
after ex.SK -> slide -> headstomp. Works just like the old mk.sk -> headstomp on ryu.
Obvious psycho crusher setups are also possible.
after ex.SK -> far st.MP -> dash -> j.HK works as a safe jump against sagat.
5- Cancellable far s.MP:
Couldn’t find much use out of this. You can use it after long range jump-ins where close st.HP won’t reach instead of cr.MK(65 dmg) or cr.MP(80 dmg) for some extra damage(90 dmg).
I know there’s almost no chance these changes will be implemented by capcom, but I tought it would be nice to see at least what they did.
unblockables are gonna be all gone for 2013, Bison’s needs unblockables against Shoto’s, it really helps 
Just some comments.
Please all keep in mind what we suggest … the complaining about Bison is soooo weak is BS !!! He is a very solid character … he just needs some small adjustments.
Motion U2 is just too strong and after thinking about it for a long time I came to the conclusion that decreasing charge time and start up would be the much much better balance buff!
Also giving him cs.hp only would be totally OP … it is already good in the corner against neutral jumps … it would make bisons corner game much too strong!!!
@Soviet
If in 2013 the top tiers will be nerfed and Bison get some small buffs he will be top ten !!! Chars that needs to play footsies have already a very hard time against Bison!
I know that there are a lot of ridiculous balance suggestions out there, but please … dont underrate Bison … and btw … the Cammy MU is not 6:4 for Cammy !!!
When it was a motion, he still wasn’t winning tournaments, so I don’t see the issue. U2 is awful right now.
I don’t see that as such a bad thing. To be honest, I don’t really have an opinion on this, but from watching the videos of it in action, it seems like it could be quite strong, but then again, bisons AA is fucking non existent so maybe this IS needed.
That’s what i was referring to. Not so much the 120 damage (although really, that isn’t that fucking much), just get rid of the stupidity of different distances doing different damage.
lol what? The ONLY use it has right now is punishing Ken’s U1 and SRKs, and you can sometimes fool somebody by neutral jump mp (which whiffs on standing characters) then try to throw them when they try to block it. I prefer my normals to have versatility in matches, not be largely ignored for 99.99999999999% of all matches.
I heard that before AE came out too.
lol yes it is. And this thread has the least ridiculous balance ideas. We’re asking for valid stuff here. Fix his broken moves (DR, HS, cHP), give us back U2 motion (or fix it somehow), improve Hell Attack so it doesn’t lose to every fucking move in the air, and dont fuck with the SKs
Lol again? Seriously people, why do you keep looking at weaknesses as something that “if it exists, then it must be eliminated”? “Bison’s AAs suck, so he NEEDS to have an AA?” Flaws are not unintentional development mistakes, they’re here for a reason.
Why do you think they made Bison’s AAs so poor? Because they made the same mistake for 3 updates in a row? No! But simply because otherwise he would be ridiculously overpowered, as it is clearly shown in the video! Why is it so hard to understand by so many people?
sigh I give up.
He has too many weaknesses that’s why. He does not deal much damage and his gameplan is liner with poor-mixups ability which means limited opportunity to deal damage in the first place. So he cannot capitalize on mistakes as well as other characters can. On a top of that, he has a poor comeback factor. He can be shut down pretty easily by blocking and neutral jumping. We are not asking for the elimination of all his weaknesses, We think his weaknesses are too many compared to other characters. We are asking for a slight improvement to work around these weaknesses.
you seem to miss the point that all the other characters are getting buffed too. Where will these leave Bison if he doesn’t get improvements to more than one tool?
Look, I really dont want to argue too much … but honestly … it will depend on how much the buff and nerf the other cast! If they will give the lower tiers some minor buffs and some small nerfs to the top tiers … than this changes will be too much! If Bison would have a godlike AA normal (and cs.hp is godlike as an AA) start up 8 frames and an incredible good hit/hurtbox he would have a an unmatched footsie and corner game … this would turn some MU from 6:4 to 7:3 and this is something I dont want … end of the story …
The U2 Motion is pretty much the same thing … yes I agree that it is BS atm … BUT … if you give Bison a Full Screen Motion Fireball Punisher + his EX SK … than you would take away the only advantage of “normal” fireball characters against Bison … they cant play footsie with him at the moment … and you would give Bison the possibility to play footsie + not needing charge to punish a fireball = too strong … from the design point of view. Improve U2 --> Less charge time … faster start up … more damage … all this is ok … but dont give him a motion … if they give him the motion back … --> than they need to nerf the damage + U2 needs only to track the opponent like a HS … no inbuild cross-up mix-up! This would be fair, still very strong but fair.
I agree also that he needs a better risk/reward + resource/reward ratio. … More reliable medium > medium combos and better FADC Damage.
Better Hell Attack would also fix instantly his AA + Damage problem … but a god-like hell attack would also be very strong for some MU … I tell you what … if they give Bison a god-like AA than they have to nerf lk.SK … that is a fact … 90% of the cast cant win footsie against him and if they are forced to stay on the ground … some Characters are doomed against Bison.
So here are the things atm … that would really help:
This is all Bison needs to be a monster !!!
St. hk and each version of scissor kicks - hard knockdown.
Cr. hk - OTG-capable and Ultra-cancellable.
…wait, what game are we playing again?
This reasoning is naive at best. That’s not how game design works, it’s not a matter of “number of buffs” every character gets. If we eliminated every weakness of every single character, do you think the game would still be balanced just because we did it to everyone?
People really have to convince themselves that weaknesses are not a mistake that has to be fixed. They’re* intentional*.
Let me explain. Every character is unique in playstyle, and designed with their own set of weaknesses to balance their strenghts. Bison has good control over horyzontal space, but, in return, poor vertical control. If he ALSO had good vertical control, every time the opponent is cornered, he would almost automatically lose, because he can’t jump away anymore. This is not fun, and plain ugly design.
By giving Bison an AA, you’re literally eliminating his main weakness: nothing would compensate for his strenghts anymore, resulting in unbalance.
I’m not saying he shouldn’t be buffed though. I’m saying that if he gets some buffs, he sure as hell won’t be getting such a strong anti-air.
I am not going by number of buffs. I am going by the fact that every character will likely be getting buffed in some manner. To allow them all to get better air games, or handle footsies better. So they really can’t afford to let Bison slip behind in one of his specialty areas. Right now jumping in on bison is relatively free. Hell Attack loses to a fucking lot of things in the air. Look at the Chun Li match up. njHK and jumping target combo all day. Then she also has a fireball and pretty damn good footsies as well. Or look at the Balrog matchup, where you pretty much lose SK pressure, and headbutt into ultra is serious business. If either of those two get buffed even a bit, the matchup becomes that much harder for Bison.
I am not saying give him the godliest AA in the universe, just saying Hell Attack needs fixing, and cHP needs to be faster. This will not make him a God. He already got nerfed going into AE, I just don’t wanna see him slip even further down the rankings.
I fully understand your intention to say “if all others get solid buffs” than Bison will also need more buffs !!! That is correct … BUT … you always have to look at the overall MU situation … you mentioned Chun Li … well let me tell you something … Chun Li is currently in a much worse state than Bison … maybe it feels like for you that Chun Li is strong … yes … she just has a good MU against Bison … she is one of 2-3 characters in the game that can keep up with Bisons horizontal footsie game + her floaty jump is not that big of a deal against Bison + she got a slow Fireball that you can not EX SK from far range … BUT Chun Li is actually a very bad character … and needs some really hard changes like being able to combo from her light attacks in a “real” combo ender.
So if you now look at the overall MU balance … than every buff that Chun Li gets will make the Chun vs. Bison MU harder to win … if Chun Li will get better/solid AA … like you suggest for Bison … what exactly will you do against Chun Li with Bison ??? You will fight st.hp / st.hk / st.mp / light Kioken / Target Combo / AA / sweep … have fun !!! This is the reason why it is soooo difficult to balance a character that has a more or less linear gameplan … he will always be too strong in certain MU if you dont give him a specific weakness …
Looking at all the crazy stuff others are requesting we have been too modest if anything…
^^ this
seriously, like I mentioned earlier. This thread is people requesting better frames on moves, to improve aspects of his game that we feel are a bit TOO weak. We aren’t asking for them to be godlike or the ultimate AA attack in the game.
Then you go to other threads and everybody is literally asking for shit like making special moves safe on block, new moves, health buffs, walking speed buff, and other shit.
I think this is nonsense, disproven by other characters that have everything they need, and sometimes more than they need: Exhibit A – the top tier. But somehow players at the top, especially those who use the top tier don’t consider their characters broken. Bison has average control over horizontal space but loses to players who have GREAT control over horizontal space (and many of these players have incredible AA). Bison doesn’t do anything exceptional well, does some things all right, and has several bad matchups. This character needs a shitload of help.
I agree giving Bison a great anti-air will not make him unbeatable. Plenty of characters have every tool in the book and are not broken just really good.
Why can’t Bison be really good?
@thebeautifulone
No. Let’s not pretend top tier chars are not considered broken now, please.
Cammy IS broken. Akuma IS broken. Fei Long IS broken. But that’s NOT the way it was meant to be, and that’s why they’re fixing it.
Top tier characters being nerfed is a given. We should start thinking of Bison’s balancement with this in mind.
And yes, Bison excels at horizontal control. Much more than Cammy, if that’s what you’re thinking. Cammy’s gameplan just happens to work better than Bison’s, but both have their excellences.
Also, in a game like this, matchups are the only thing that really matters. Even if you seem weak on paper, if only a few characters are able to counter your gameplan, then you’re automatically top tier.
Giving Bison an AA would drastically change many, if not all of his matchups. In this game, having many favorable MUs, even if not by much, is what makes a character overpowered, rather than having a dominating strategy. This is not Marvel, where MUs are irrilevant and what counts is to make your strategy the most broken possible.
If you change his design so brutally, many matchups already in our favour may become unwinnable by the opponent. That’s why I’m against this type of change, and personally I’d prefer something more in line with his design.
But I guess I’ll just wait for you to explain why my post is, once again, just a bunch of nonsense.
Am I the only Bison player that feels that his C.HP is just fine the way it is in frames? Only thing it needs is a smaller hurtbox so it trades less. C.HP is a really good AA if you know how to use it correctly. Bisons weakness has always been his AA game and a strong ground game. Capcom shouldnt mess with this.
Probably, the fact of the matter is cr.hp isn’t that useful right now in a lot of matchups simply due to its slow startup and its hurtboxes. If one isn’t the problem then the other tends to be. Simply reducing the hurtbox but not speeding the startup at least a bit isn’t going to help much imo.