You have an avatar of your main character and call tools “stupid BS” yet somehow I am biased for providing quotes of my Sak/Seth match up debates as well as quoting a pretty respected player (who’s main gets fucking mauled by Seth) that watches one of the best Sak players we know of.
I’ll get this back on topic since I pretty much had a hand in steering it off. Oni doesn’t really seem like his tools are all that amazing even if new tech comes up. Health and high damage don’t really throw characters into top tier. Now Gouken looks like he could be a top tier character when you have the set ups and reactions. His wake up isn’t that great, but he can get some really solid damage and/or positioning if he’s willing to take the risk and not block. But his demon flip tricks are fucking annoying and as far as I can tell, are relatively safe to boot. Some characters have issues dealing with his air parry especially. His new fst.MP is really underutilized from what I’ve seen. 3f Super opens up a lot of new punishment options from what I can tell too.
He was talking to me with the big daddy comment I think.
Doesn’t Sakura have a ton of unblockables against Seth?
I missed this. Health and damage do matter, it just depends on the extent of it. If you have a character with really good tools, health, and damage, that is definitely better than having the low health. I think Oni’s tools are somewhat gimmicky though, but maybe under utilized.
His tools aren’t Akuma level, but he has a dragon punch with the most invincibility frames (outside of ex) that is 3 frame. Good tatsu, good normals, lousy normal fireball, but the triple hitting fireball. Some neat crossups and powerful ultras. Not sure if he’ll be top, but maybe high mid.
Gouken has some great zoning and damage, though he has some big problems in certain matchups due to the way his moves are.
I think Guy has a lot of potential. Very good mobility, solid hit-confirms, good normals, ambiguous set-ups, constant pressure etc… He has some trouble vs the charge characters, especially Honda but other than that I think he’ll be a great character in the long run.
I think even if Rose will overall stay the same, there are still some stuff undiscovered and new stuff currently being discovered with her. Theory fighter has been given some hints here and there…still some stuff to be found with Rose
I also want to agree with The breaker even tho its not really my business:
short hair girl with red panties > big evil robot that wants to take over an organization
I am on the fence about Guy. I’ve always had an easy time AAing him with Seth after I took some time to figure his tricks out, but trying to AA him with Sagat and Yun feels like a joke. Once you respect his frame traps, it’s a pain in the ass getting him off…and it can be hard to apply pressure if he picks U2. Rose will probably drop if anything. I think she has some stuff that hasn’t been found too, but it’s kinda like…what can she get that will fix her bad match ups or push her advantageous ones into 7-3? With Seth, I’m always thinking of possible new stuff (and subsequently forgetting because I am lazy) that just makes him even more annoying than he is now. Like how Seth can do 230 off cr.LK, cr.LP, cr.LP, EX DP and get enough time to do whatever the fuck he wants against some characters.
ibuki with u1.
reason.
she has all the tools.
has an answer for everything.
now if only ibukis online would stop trying to vortex every second even when its unsafe and actually block on occasion…you’d might see her tier rank go up.
Yeah but thinking about it, nobody really has all of Guy’s stuff in one package (guess Cammy is better at playing the game he wants though). He’s gonna have some bad match ups here and there but he can still move up. Don’t even see anyone take advantage of the weird wake up properties he has (pain in the ass doing recorded set ups when your shit goes through him if he doesn’t hold downback…) Sakura’s in my current top 10, but her weird hit box on wake up could work against her down the road…
Arcadia Magazine had Seth listed as mid C tier in their January 2011 issue (pre-evo)
Arcadia Magazine bumped Seth up to bottom of B tier in their October 2011 issue (post-evo pre-AE2012)
Also Air had asked Tokido, Daigo, and Mago about their top 10 characters in AE back in january 2011 and their top 10 list didn’t even include Seth. Only 2 weeks after AE2012 hit Seth was almost universally seen across everyone’s list
Uryo - Seth, Akuma and Abel.
Sako - Seth, Akuma, Fei Long, C. Viper and Dhalsim.
Kazunoko - Seth and Ryu.
Mago - Sagat, Balrog, Akuma, E. Honda, Abel, Cammy, Sakura, Blanka, Seth and Fei Long.
Tokido - Seth and E. Honda.
Kindevu - Seth, Sagat, Akuma and Cammy.
Hishou - Seth, Cammy, Akuma, and Abel.
Nekojita - Seth, Adon, Sakura
Younashi - Seth, Fei Long, Cammy
Naruo - Seth, Fei Long, Ibuki, Juri
Itabashi Zangief - Seth, Cammy, Sagat
RF - Abel, Sagat, Seth, Akuma, Rufus, Sakura and Ryu.
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Even in Super the Japanese put Seth as the bottom of B tier
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Sorry you’re just flat out wrong in this case. Plus other than Yun/Yang/Fei, the majority of Seth’s more even or even bad matchups were barely changed in 2012 or outright buffed. Cammy was buffed, Guy was buffed, Sakura was buffed, Ibuki was buffed, Akuma was barely changed, Makoto received a 50health nerf making her TC special cancelable is important in the Seth matchup. It wasn’t AE2012 that brought Seth from C-B tier to A+ tier it was PoongKO’s exposure via EVO and other majors.
…I’m sorry you didn’t play this game before AE? Americans had Seth in the upper B tier for most of Super and a lot of people were calling for Seth to be straight up banned during Vanilla (don’t really remember where people were placing him though…)
You don’t even know Seth’s bad match ups, so how can you give me an accurate argument on that?
Fei got nerfed significantly. Viper got nerfed. Yang got nerfed into the ground. Yun got nerfed signifigantly.
Ibuki was not a bad match up (barely is now.)
Gouki got nerfed (not a bad match up anymore.)
Makoto got nerfed (not a bad match up to begin with.)
Guy is not a bad match up.
Sakura’s buffs don’t change anything.
Losing Ultra 1 negatively effected every character that had a fast fireball in some capacity. Seth could not stop zoning at full screen outside of a wall jump guess or well timed fst.HP. How the fuck am I wrong? Ultra 1 and j.HP go -> you lose points and have big weaknesses in your game. Ultra 1 comes back, add nj.MK -> your lost points come back.
Well you think Oni has good mobility so whatever I guess. Nobody is going to change what you think and I’m not gonna bother.
You talking about my opinion on Oni? He has some ways to get around in the air. he does have a bad backdash though. So I guess he has some good movement options. I wouldn’t say he’s Viper or Ibuki though.
No one is thinking about her and we have new (groundbreaking; hard to implement though) tech. But she has a really good neutral game, and decent normals that gets overshadowed by the “top tiers”. But meh I would like her to remain in the shadows for a while longer.
Ugh some Cammy player wanted to play me in Super once (after AE2012 was out) and I played it. I don’t even wanna talk about Super Juri. She was so god awful and it doesn’t help that I was facing Super Cammy. I hate Super soo much.
actually I think Oni should be allowed to FADC all his shoryukens specially since his wake up game is so bad.
There are a ton of things I would give Oni to make him better. Even if would make him no.1 in the game, I wouldn’t care.
Teleport
7 frame crouching RoundHouse + better recovery
totally change the frame data of fireballs (more like akuma or slightly worse)
ex air dash
fadc srk
air U1 travel faster
hitbox more wide at the start of vertical U1
I dont think capcom really isn’t making justice for Oni considering how “powerful” he’s supposed to be.
