That flashkick idea is amazing. I’m stealing that for my wish list. My personal “fix” though is in regards to the UDK hitbox. I just want the hitbox to extend down a little more so it doesn’t whiff on certain characters. There’s nothing more frustrating than baiting a crouch tech only to have it completely whiff.
We are trying to compile a buff list for every character. For guile I talked with Slinkun and Gilley and this is what I came with:
- Flash Kick: +10 dmg for L, H (120-150)
- Ultra 2: +50 dmg (350)
- Sonic Boom: normal versions gets +1 blockstun (+1/+3/+5)
- Flash Kick: Fix his turn around glitch so his FK’s can autocorrect
- Make all versions of flashkick cause the opponent to be knocked slightly further away in the air on hit.
- Ex FK: +1 invincibility frame (6 in total)
- f. Mk: hitbox extended just a little bit lower.
- Reverse Spin Kick: +20 dmg (120)
- Spinning Back Knuckle: +10 dmg (110)
Guile should get j.hk\hp unblockables against characters like Gen, E.ryu, Fei and Cammy in the corner.
Really, the back dash needs a buffing.
Buffs:
-Fix the problem with fk not connecting on cross
-fk->super->ultra should be made possible, why does goken get to juggle you 2 or 3 times and them into an ultra while guile can not do a double juggle into ultra?
-Some better properties on bazooka knee, would be nice that on hit you can go into a combo, or have it better hitbox/hurtbox, not looking for faster recovery on block as it will turn into cheap ass move like rose constantly sliding to get in the easy throw.
-Get rid of the juggle kick completely, it is a useless move.
-An extra frame of hitstun on the jp lk, makes crossups a little bit more practical.
-shades can be cancelled, but only for 1 bar.
Nerfs:
-cr HP less damage,
-Sonic-whore-I-came should have less range, or be punishable on block at med/close range.
Not Nerf or buff:
-The air throw animation and sound effect should be more brutal
-s.HP and backfist, his hands should glow and the sound effect should be akin to bones breaking.
-Shades should start off looking like guile is throwing out a special; boom or fk, and then it quickly turns into putting on his glasses, could be good bait and even better bait if you can cancel it for 1 bar.
Just wondering about the reasoning on cr.hp doing less damage. It’s already a situational anti-air and when you do hit with hit it’s usually at the extended animation which means 80 damage. Bringing it down seems overkill.
I figured you have to give something to get something, the cr.hp is already bad compared to ryu’s cr.hp but if is slows down the boom spam and cr.hp zone control then maybe capcom will throw us a bone and at the very least fix the fk tracking on crossups. Guile has other options for ground aa, the mk and the mp, though not as good generally as the cr.hp, when used correctly it is quite effective.
My opinion is that it is no use asking for guile to be rebalanced, capcom should just release a new character “evil guile” with a much weaker zoning game but better rushdown and good juggles. There are 10 shoto variants in AE, throw us charge players a bone and give us another character with projectile (make it is crap projectile like sakuras and chuns, but keep the fast recovery so you continue to combo after it) that can also do serious mixups and damage.
Guys, I just wrote Dieminion and suggested that he be our voice for the new rebalance. We only have until Thursday to voice our opinions for Guile. That being said, below is the message I sent him. They include some things I think they should have included in the last patch, but never did. If you guys have any other realistic and feasible suggestions, please include them below. Thanks.
Kevin, you are our only hope.
As you know, Capcom is now taking suggestions for the new patch… only until Thursday. I think you are our only voice since Combofiend and Capcom will definitely listen to what you have to say when you make suggestions for guile.
I haven’t logged onto the shoryuken forums yet however in addition to whatever suggestion you may have, I think it would be wise to suggest the following:
- Increase sonic boom meter gain back to 20, if not at LEAST 15. It is currently at 10.
Right now, meter gain is at 20 with characters such as Dee Jay and Rose. When there is a lame fireball fight, it is completely unfair. If they decide not to increase Guile’s meter gain, then theirs should be reduced to 10 to the likes of Ryu and Ken. Don’t you agree?
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U2 damage increase. Not to what it was originally, but where they kept it is laughable. I would think you agree. (I would suggest 200 damage at least, its currently 150)
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Return startup frames for U2 back to 8 frames.
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Remove Guile unblockables. From my understanding, the reason why guile’s ultras dont autocorrect is due to too an excess in frames when turning. This may also be the cause of his unblockables. It may not even be a parameter they can fix, but worth mentioning. The following information provided by Gilley may be the reason why.
(this is an excerpt from the rebalance thread, a post written by gilley)
-Fix the damn turning animation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA54bkIRvKc Desk discovered this wierd thing that happens if you record 1f on the training dummy. Notice what happens with Guile. He slides across the ground during this. That means his turning animation has translation in it. Ever wonder why Guile is the only character in the game that can’t autocorrect with his Flash Kick/AA special very well? This is why. If you’ve seen the hitxbox videos, you’ll notice these little nodes underneath the characters during any animation. These are the nodes that tell where the character is in space. At Sony for God of War, we call those zeroJoints. What I think is going on here is the animation has a tiny bit of motion in the zeroJoint. It’s probably a small oversight/overshoot from whoever animated it.
I know they will listen to Dieminion. I didn’t include it, but I was thinking that backfist should be raised to 100, instead of 90. If I’m not mistaken, it was at 120 to start with.
Thoughts and comments appreciated.
I already posted my bits in there.
- The wakeup turn-around hurtbox
- Lower hitboxes on f.mk, b.mk, and close b.hk.
- Flashkick hits slightly further away for easier U2 combos.
I also posted that I think that while sonic hurricane could use a buff to damage or startup, I think buffing both would be a bit too strong.
Just gonna copy-pasta my post from the suggestion thread. Sorry if it’s a little long winded. And my goodness, the number of completely garbage posts in the thread is depressing. Maybe my suggestions are ass too but “ZOMG SONIC BOOM IS TOO SAFES!” etc.
Flash Kick (AA)
Currently the reward for landing a far anti-air Flash Kick is curiously low (80 damage?). It is actually quite difficult/rare to successfully fish for a jump-in over Sonic Boom that can be be anti-aired with HK Flash Kick. I understand not wanting to give high damage output to something which covers such a large area but the payoff for a baited jump at a very particular range needs to be increased given the fairly high risk.
If anything, make EX Flash Kick have increased reward as an anti-air even if it does not hit deep for both hits. Higher damage or increased push-back distance off the second hit would increase far AA reward (where as now there is no difference between HK and EX as a far-AA). Alternatively, reverse the damage values of EX so that the first hit does less but the second hit does more. This could allow total raw damage to remain unchanged but adjust far-AA reward and also juggle reward.
Reverse Spin Kick / Upside Down Kick
Considering that the main purpose of this move is to counter crouch teching, it still often whiffs against many character’s crouching lights. Could use a more reliable hit box. Quite often I will simply get thrown in recovery as my brain confirms that the opponent did press a button and thus should be hit by the UDK but then is surprisingly unharmed.
Ultra 2
My primary issue with U2 now is that it is almost guaranteed to trade when used on reaction to a fireball. With such low raw damage as is, it essentially does even less if you factor in the trade with the opponent’s fireball. This also makes U2 suicidal if you are at less than 70 health. Perhaps consider granting longer fireball invincibility to help fireballs either pass through or get absorbed by sonic hurricane. Arguably Ryu’s U1 also has a habit of trading, however it is a much more versatile Ultra for him where as Guile has stricter circumstances to land U2 and also does not have the luxury of buffering the input more than once.
If you are determined to keep U2 raw damage the same, I think it would be fair to somehow improve the trade outcome when used on reaction to fireballs.
Auto-correct
As mentioned before, fix the turnaround glitch so FK can have some ability to auto-correct.
So I’m a little bit torn here and I need some feedback. That new video/tech I was working on during the holidays shows how guile can get out of every unblockable in the game. It doesn’t involve FK to get out of them. With this new patch announced, should I finish the video now/soon or wait until after capcom patches SF4? If I release the video and show guile can get out of unblockables, maybe capcom will get the idea that the autocorrect FK doesn’t need fixing. If I don’t release the video, maybe they’ll think that autocorrect needs fixing to fight unblockables.
Ideas…? I really think the fact that guile doesn’t autocorrect with anything properly is the dumbest thing about the character.
FYI, I’m about 80% done recording all the videos I need and would just need to author the clips into one vid. I’m just really busy with my job/life so I never have enough time to get stuff done. I also lack motivation.
I’d say no, for the very reason you mention.
I mean, every character has ways out of the unblockables, but it doesn’t change the fact that it adds a stupid layer of meta that tips any matcup in the favor of the aggressor. I mean, I found that I can wakeup focus and do a delayed dash, but even my opponents have started to catch on to that and punish it when they do their unblockable.
Just because there is a way out doesn’t make it any less silly. Fact is, unblockables are an unintended engine flaw and really shouldn’t be there in the first place. Cross-ups are there to make the defender judge the block direction carefully but unblockables override this with ‘doesn’t matter!’. Not to mention some unblockables require little skill to setup while escaping them may be especially difficult so it leads to near guaranteed damage off of what should be a difficult but conventionally defend-able situation.
Like Slinkun said it’s kind of another layer of meta but not in a good way. I shouldn’t have to be able to recognize every unblockable setup as it is happening and know before hand ‘oh man it’s an unblockable setup, gotta do my special escape’. It also relies on the aggressor not messing up the setup which can make it even more difficult to defend. Usually the player will just think he blocked the wrong way a few times but even if the player later suspects it was an unblockable after failing to block too many times, it’s too late. At least if it’s too ambiguous to judge properly, I should have a 50% chance of blocking the right way just by picking a direction. After all, it’s not a combo.
I think releasing the video will not really influence Capcom’s decision too heavily, but I think a video that is specifically about escaping unblockables also draws attention to the fact that there is a need for it. You could give it a ‘fix this capcom we shouldn’t have to do this’ tone. Alternatively you could compile the different unblockable setups into a vid showing just how many ways Guile can get bodied…
Hi guys, I searched capcom unity threads and tried to compile a buff list for most characters, based on the sugestions posted there.
The idea is - stronger characters will receive less buffs, weaker ones more, and top tiers mostly nothing.
I will post the entire buff list on capcom unity on week 5.
This is Guile’s list:
Guile
- Ultra 2: +50 dmg (350) increase to final hit.
- Flash Kick: Make all versions of flashkicks cause the opponent to be knocked slightly further away in the air on hit.
- Ex FK: +1 invincibility frame (6 in total)
- Reverse Spin Kick: larger downward hitbox
- Ultra 1: motion changed like Vega’s Ultra 2 motion (charge db-f-b-f kick)
- Rolling Sobat: make it special cancel-able on contact; free range direction input (mid-animation direction change).
- far st HK: slightly longer hitbox
- cr MK: slightly longer hitbox/hurtbox (give it more range but also more punishable range for whiffing)
- cl st HP: Increase the range in which close s.hp comes out
Explanations:
[details=Spoiler]
- FK knock down: This will fix the absurd difficulty of landing flashkick FADC U2. Heck, it’s impossible to even land on some characters at point blank range currently, like Cammy. Also, against a lot of characters with good wakeup options, landing a combo into flashkick actually leaves guile in a pretty poor position, even with the knockdown.
- ex FK: Currently, it has 5 inv. frames; the same as LK flashkick and only 1f into the active frames. Everyone elses EX uppercuts have absolutely insane invincibility on them for kind of a “I want this AA or wakeup to go through so bad that I’m willing to spend the meter on it”. Right now slightly mistimed EX version loses to jump attacks.
- Reverse spin kick: whiffs on characters with small hurtboxes when they crouch-tech, which defeats the purpose of buffing this move initially.
- Ultra 1: No one uses Ultra 1, not because Ultra 2 is great… because Ultra 1 is nearly useless. Changing the motion would make it easier to use and more useful overall. Please think about what the move is designed to do, and how much use it has outside of it.
- R. Sobat: other than losing ground, there is currently no real reason to use the move backwards. On contact, Guile should at least be able to cancel into sonic boom upon moving backward. Also should be able to switch from forward or backward (vice versa) when using the move to give him more movement during ground normals. Only one direction change mid-animation.
- far st HK: since it has reasonable start-up for a ground normal, it’s really easy to counter by a simple focus attack. It’s also not easy to react to whiffed ground normals due to it’s start-up.
- cr Mk: since he can’t 2 in 1 (cancel it into a special move), it only has 1 purpose and that is stritcly for trying keeping the opponent out. It will still be able to be exploited by focus attacks.
- cl st Hp: One of the more damaging combos that Guile can do is off a UDK ~ close s.hp link. Unfortunately, the close s.hp doesn’t come out for the majority of the cast (I think) but a far s.hp comes out instead. This will improve his combo damage output without actually affecting him. It’s just a matter of being able to land the UDK. [/details]
Would you agree with this ? anything broken/ too strong ?
The #1 thing capcom needs to look at with Guile is his turn around animation. It needs to be fixed so he can autocorrect with FK/U1/super better.
Making rolling sobat special cancellable is stupid IMHO. You won’t be special cancelling the forward moving version because it hits on frame 11. You need to press the button to special cancel within 10f of leaving charge to get a charge move. Making the backwards moving sobat special cancellable is just as dumb because the move rarely hits people. You have to be very close to your opponent for it to even hit. Backwards sobat has always mainly been used as a spacing tool.
If you want to look at fixing the sobats, I would adjust their hitbox so it’s slightly lower. It wiffs on crouching opponents sometimes. It also needs to get off the ground a little faster. Currently it gets off the ground on frame 6. This should be adjusted so it gets off the ground on frame 4 or 5.
I’m not sure why you would want to increase the range which close s.hp comes out either. If you increase the range on this you can probably kiss the far s.hp > far s.hp combo goodbye.
Guile has more pressing issues than these, like autocorrect. I’m surprised you didn’t see this after looking at the guile thread on Capcom Unity. It was most requested thing to be fixed for Guile(along with more U2 damage).
I also think special canceling back sobat is mostly pointless. It’s kind of neat on paper but realistically this would only ever work as a fluke on occasion rather than being a real tool. On the bright side you could FADC a front sobat to do… something…
I see what he means with the close s.hp issue after UDK… on some characters even at after point blank UDK you’ll get a far s.hp instead for some reason which is irritating. Increasing the close activation range by like a pixel or whatever to make it work after UDK reliably might not affect far s.hp x2 combos since generally those are slightly further away than point blank. But yea, this is touchy and might just be better off remembering the character specific outcome since I think it only applies to a few.
Honestly I’ve always kinda wanted UDK activation range to be marginally further like SFxT style…
Regarding the turn around glitch - I included this buff on the list, but then many people expressed concern that this buff would make Guile’s defense too strong. The idea is - Fks have 4 frames start up, are fadcable, good invincibility - if they would autocorrect like Honda’s HBs would make Guile’s defense much stronger. Many said this isn’t even a glitch - it’s something Capcom purposely made it so Guile won’t be too good.
Many characters already have a lot of trouble getting past Guile’s defense, so when they finally knock him down they should be rewarded. This should be Guile’s weakness. I understand this buff would help Guile against cammy, but then what about Zangief, Sakura, Bison, or honda matches ?
That’s why I removed this buff - I don’t know, it’s really controversial.
The Sobat buff was proposed by Dieminion. But if you think this and cl Hpbuff are not needed, I can remove them and replace with something else. Other sugestions I’ve found:
-
Fix f+mk. Lower hitbox.
The design of this move is to beat low attacks. Lower body invincibility starts at 6 frames (slower then most low attacks), and -4 frames on block, meaning its meant to be used in anticipation of a low attack. So please stop it from failing at it’s job against most characters key pokes. -
df HK: Make the move usable in all the cast; Extend the hitbox downwads
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close st.MP: less start-up, pushback and hitstun
reason : this move has no real purpose outside of a linking from a st.LP into low damage combo. Guile needs a new use for this move to make his close offense better. Scoring a counter-hit with this move should open him up for new combo possibilities. -
Sonic Booms: either increase meter gain (15) or +1 blockstun. These were also controversial, people said Guile build great meter. And buffing his Sbs…I don’t know, they are already great, and I think it would mostly affect guile’s already good matches (characters that have trouble with booms) and less his bad ones (Adon, Cammy, Abel, who have ways around them anyway).
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More dmg (return some dmg he lost since super - backfist, udk, fks).
What do you think it would be better for Guile ?
So are the same idiots who said Guile builds great meter the same people who think fixing his turn around would be too good? Cause Guile is ASS at building meter currently. I read through the capcom-unity Guile changes thread and** out of the 390 posts on there, there were THREE instances of someone complaining that fixing the autocorrect ability would make him too strong**. I lost count at the amount of requests FOR autocorrect. I can honestly say you have some personal vendetta against the Guile character and probably shouldn’t be in charge of submitting any lists. Hardly anyone is expressing concern over this change to Guile.
You really shouldn’t listen to anyone who says fixing FK so it turns around would make his defense too good. The FK has always had this ability to autocorrect in every other version of SF, and Guile is almost identical to those versions(minus a new overhead, juggleable df+hk, instant OTG UDK).
I find it funny that people would say it would make him too good when there’s another character in the game that has a lot of similarities to Guile and his FK move autocorrects fine. I’m talking about Deejay. He’s not really considered to be a good character. But I guess according to some people, he’s too good since his FK move autocorrects.
It just sucks some stupid myth came about during SF4 that people think Guile shouldn’t be able to hit people who try to cross him up. Guile’s weakness has ALWAYS been that he is a charge character and his normals have always been “meh” when someone gets in close to him. When you knock Guile down you are automatically rewarded. You get a chance to do some kind of a mixup game on him when he wakes up. And BTW, the range at which Guile’s FK won’t autocorrect to beat crossups is also the same range which people are already in on Guile. So the whole argument where “you wouldn’t be able to get in on him” doesn’t float.
I didn’t even think about the Cammy matchup when saying the FK needs to autocorrect. What you fail to realize the FK also doesn’t autocorrect against Gief, Sakura, Bison and every other character in the game. You’re thinking about buffs/nerfs the wrong way. You have to think about how this would effect the character on a whole. Currently as a whole, FK wiffs on everyone and it looks absolutely stupid when it happens.
You list a whole bunch of other potential changes that are nothing compared to his autocorrect issue.
Any tool to escape cross ups would be nice. The back dash now is terrible. Everything hits it.
First of all, chill out. I have nothing against Guile, otherwise I wouldn’t have come here and ask your oppinion. I could just simply list whatever I want, point out how many times Dieminion/Nuckledu placed top 8 at a major and say Guile doesn’t need much, but I didn’t.
Yes, no guile mainer expressed concern with autocorrect fix - those who expressed concern are here at srk - and don’t play guile. And there were quite a few people who strongly disagreed with this change.
- Yes, Guile is almost the same as in ST, but Sf4 is not. Kd plays a much more important role than in ST, and reversal timing is much more lenient.
- And regarding Dee Jay: yes, his upkicks autocorrects, BUT - they don’t hit crouching opponents, AND are not fadcable, whic makes a big difference.
If you want, come to Sf4 rebalance thread and explain your point of view - if people agree, I have nothing against including this buff on the list.