Making a MUGEN thread on SRK is imviting everyone to call you a fucking retard. But you’re a furry, you’re probably used to that.
No, it is not. This is part of the problem with MUGEN. MUGEN is not a fighting game. MUGEN is an engine on which fighting games can be built.
Editing move properties isn’t hard. If following the very logical progression of a hitdef is too complicated for you, I doubt the hypothetical XML based variant is going to be of much help.
There’s nothing “choppy” about the gameplay in MUGEN that isn’t dependent upon the limitations of the content. It could stand more visual features, though, I’ll agree. On the other hand,
I could not agree with this more–not so much in th sense that Elecbyte messed up as in the overall idea that backwards compatiblity is even worth caring about. Backwards compatibility is the dumbest issue going on with the MUGEN scene at large, and it’s proof positive that nobody wants to actually make games. There were so many MUGEN clones like XNA Mugen, Shugendo, InfinityCat, and others that were worked on in the years that Elecbyte disappeared, all of which ran at 1992 resolutions and added minimal features. The smart thing to do would be to make a game with actual support for modern features (higher resolutions, more interface options, etc.) based around the MUGEN coding language. Then people could translate their skills to a better engine. Nobody wanted to do that, because backward compatibility was too important.
Nobody needs to be a tournament player to make good games in MUGEN. They just have to want to make a good game, be willing to work hard at it, and know what they’re doing. Generally speaking, nobody does. The game is the game. If the game is good, people will play it.
Incidentally, there’s nothing stopping someone from making an external netplay client compatible with MUGEN. It was done with Caster for IAMP, Melty Blood, and Akatsuki Blitzkampf. It was done with Lunaport and works with any game made in Fighter Maker 2nd. Honestly, I’d put higher faith in a community client than an inbuilt one anyway (just look at how much better blitzcaster is than the built-in netplay in Blitzkampf).
I agree with what’s been said here. I’d someone come out with an original, fun, solid game with some fresh ideas, Built on the MUGEN engine, I’d play it. But that doesn’t happen. All we get are 12 year olds dicking around with headswaps like “raging shin violent Ken-kuma.”
Agree completely. To be quite honest, Warpticon is probably the only one in this thread actually qualified to talk about MUGEN. That’s not hyperbole, either.
MUGEN is an excellent tool that, for both good and stupid reasons, has never been used to its full potential. Yes, it attracts a lot of talentless hacks who can’t even code KFM into a FUNCTIONAL crappy DBZ character (whaddup crouching jab infinites…wish I had a few BRAZIL TIME videos at hand on YouTube), and yes, it tends to attract more half-hearted-to-full-hearted conversions of existing characters rather than original properties, but with minor tweaks and an actual dev team attached there’s absolutely no reason it couldn’t produce a “serious” fighting game.
People take Vanguard Princess seriously despite its origins, there’s no reason the same can’t be done should a “serious” MUGEN game eventually emerge. The engine itself is accessible and malleable (and, er, effectively abandoned to the public domain) enough that with minor tweaks and a lot of elbow grease/original assets, it’s perfectly possible to create a product of at least Melty Blood production values.
And really, if you’ve ever sat down to try to make even one totally original character for MUGEN, you’ll understand VERY quickly why you rarely see full “games” for MUGEN and why they’re all of such low quality. This shit is a LOT more work than it appears to be, especially if you’re trying to come up with 100% original or mostly-original art/sound assets, and ESPECIALLY if you’re trying to do stuff more or less on your own. (Even sprite-editing KOF characters like MUGEN kids love to do takes FOREVER.)
And really, what the hell kind of dev team could you possibly assemble for a non-profit fighting game venture? Between just making the assets and then having to balance and clean up the damn thing to make it not look so much like a MUGEN game, that’s NOT work you wanna be doing for free, and the naiive fools who think it never happens simply for lack of trying quickly learn how hard it is to keep themselves and anyone they team up with focused and on schedule.
Case in point, I once tried to crudely draw my own MUGEN character from scratch thinking I could bang out more than enough mediocre sprites to have a character who was ugly but at least well-proportioned and fully animated within a month or two. With all the basic proportion mistakes I made, it took me a month just to draw all the “required” sprites (the getting-hit/knockdown/thrown state animations that allow your character to be implemented as a basic punching bag in MUGEN), and trying to make a 4-button character I spent another month on just the basic attacks. I got about halfway through a very ghetto Balrog-esque rush punch animation (his one special move of a planned 4 + a Balrog rush punch super) before I finally lost initiative.
(That’s not to say I didn’t have a fair bit of fun with the project while I was at it. Favorite memories include recording my own shitty voice grunts for the character in question, watching him throw people into space when my brother [an OG MUGEN creator] and I failed to set a certain value for his throw properly, and of course his sweep animation. I basically eyeball-traced Iori’s crouching D sweep animation for my character for around 12-14 unique frames of animation, but when I played the whole thing back I realized that over the course of 8 frames or so I had accidentally doubled the size of the character’s proportions. Lots of fun then ensued with ghetto resizing (and some outright redrawing) on his gigantic fucking legs to keep him properly proportioned for the duration of his sweep. Proportion ain’t easy, but it is, in fact, necessary.)
It’s thanks to MUGEN that I understand half the stuff I do about fighting games. No matter how shitty large chunks of the scene may be, MUGEN is still the shit. If I ever find the initiative to (poorly) draw sprites again, I may actually give it another shot.
wtf what qualifications do you need to talk about mugen?
Warp actually MADE characters, by himself and with collaborators, and we’re not talking crude DBZ characters or cheesy SHIN EVIL KEN kinda shit, either. I know this because I followed the MUGEN scene well before the WinMUGEN leak (I’d wager most people here had never even HEARD of MUGEN until the WinMUGEN leak), and while I wasn’t a creator myself, I got a pretty clear secondhand picture of who was actually doing work within that scene by way of my brother. Warp was definitely one of the most legit people in that scene. A lot of those people have since fallen off but some of them are still around, and a lot of the stupid dog tricks they taught the engine to do have become institutions.
Responses like this thread has been getting only underscore how few people have actually TRIED to work with MUGEN and understand what its actual role in the fighting game scene is.
Oh, I don’t know, someone who’s actually taken the trouble of trying to develop something within in? You know, someone with hands-on experience rather than the general opinion of everyone else?
Obviously if you have done development with a dev tool, you can elaborate more on said dev tool, but I wouldn’t go as far as to say you have no place to comment on a dev tool if you haven’t actually developed with it.
If you have no experience with a Dev tool than how can you possibly come up with a valid statement on said development product on how useful it is/can be…
By all means you can make valid comments on the quality of things that have been released from it, but as far as how good the tool is i don’t think you can…
like I said, its a nonissue because it was already based on the older mugen somewhat. though 2.0 will entirely overhaul the cns structure.
It’s not fair to say people arent making full games, because there are a already a handful which are much more than throwing things together
about netplay: there are a load of problems with developing and implementing it.
The post I responded to just said nobody but warp was qualified to talk about mugen, without being more specific than that. You can get a good idea of how it works just by running it, and can at least make a good guess at its potential. Hell, I’d wager a lot of people who have only used Mugen have a better concept of its potential when it seems like a great deal of the people working in mugen are just making shoto clones.
Amazing, I hope this becomes somewhat popular
You and I are talking about two different things when it comes to backward compatibility.
It’s perfectly fair to say people aren’t making full games. It’s unfair to say that games are being made with any regularity, because they’re not. Where are they? It should be obvious that I don’t mean no games have ever been made. Obviously some have. Some have been good. [media=youtube]orQW9RFB4RY[/media] look rather impressive, as well. I think it’s pretty obvious that what I meant was that such things are few and far between.
And yeah, from '99 to 2002 I was very involved in the MUGEN scene. I was on the team for Strider: Option Zero. I did make some characters and assist with some others, and I tested a lot of other creator’s characters before release because I had a pretty good eye for issues. I helped a lot with beta testing of MEE, which was the ideal 3rd party tool for MUGEN creation at that time, as well. Perhaps most notably, I was admin of the Mugen DEV Forums, which at the time was the largest English speaking MUGEN forum on the internet. This is what Ben Reed means when he talks about me being “qualified” to talk about MUGEN; though I’m not sure I would have phrased things that way, the point is that I have extensive hands-on experience with the engine that most people here cannot relate to. I’m sure there may be others here with greater experience than I in recent times, though.
What are the “loads of problems” with implementing netplay? How is it more of an issue with an actual game than it is for any numbeer of other games on PC?
Rare Akuma is a parody of all characters like “holy ryu ultimate ssj” and stuff…but yeah.
Complete mugen game?Kof zillion, but I dont know other…
Yeah, I may have misspoke a bit, and I would revise that statement to at least include c001357 now that I’ve seen what he had to say.
I just get up in arms because so many people’s impressions of MUGEN’s capability are colored only by a cursory, very late surface impression from crappy CPU fantasy fights on YouTube, as well as the fallacious impression that crude MUGEN creations proceed from a crude tool rather than creative deficiency, which couldn’t be further from the truth.
If half of these people had been familiar with MUGEN in even a collector capacity before the post-WinMUGEN era, I think they’d have a much more complete picture of what the good and bad parts of the scene and the engine itself actually are. There’s a lot more to MUGEN than Shin Neo Max SSJ3 Akuma and silly screen-filling supers that never end, but so many people never get to see past that (not really helped by the YouTube culture surrounding modern MUGEN IMO).
As for the “we need more GOOD complete MUGEN games” deal…I’m really not prepared to throw out condemnations on that subject. A lot of people really underestimate just how much work is actually involved in making a project of even the most ghetto doujin-game proportions (read: that one Les Miserables fighting game the title of which I can never remember…ArmJoe, I think?). It’s a simple question of skillset distribution that I don’t really think can be judged all that much on ethical grounds, it’s just a fact of demographic. Most people who are familiar with MUGEN and would want to make a game on it have (to varying degrees) enthusiasm that outstrips their productive ability, and most of the people whose productive ability (and/or resources) would do well in MUGEN are either unaware of MUGEN or already tied up in professional endeavors elsewhere in the industry.
What about that CVS3 Mugen game?I heard that was decent.
also to that person that said that mugen doesnt have a good tag system:
you are wrong me and ryouwin 2 created a fully working tag code that was the 1st to
add mvc 1 style tagging with a touch of mvc2 with the control over the assist.
here is proof.
this was the beta video:
[media=youtube]NXIMEdQasHA[/media]
beta 2:
[media=youtube]182acZGf2Ak && http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1U9OPZUjgs&feature=related[/media]
this is what the code looks like now in action:
[media=youtube]UF_6jHPxCX0&feature=PlayList&p=1DE504A3BEA74DB7&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=19[/media]
[media=youtube]La216CPGRiA&feature=related[/media]
so tell me that mugen doesnt have a good tag!!!
I think Mugen is an under utilized tool in almost every way. I’ve only seen two things from Mugen that made me think"Yea i’d play that" and that was that card Saga Wars game and the ippo boxing game. Both look sick as hell but neither of them seem to be making any real progress at all so staying hype for them is next to impossible.
I hate that Mugen makes me have to filter through an ass load of bull shit videos on youtube to find matches for a number of games. That shits so fucking old.
i guess that just your opinion cause more people loved what i’ve done with tag than hate it like you. but i respect your view but i dont agree with you .
i showed the videos in order from the old to the new and mroe polished. and if you even saw the last video with the dc vs marvel it shows that mugen can do it. and the so called ghetto …excuse me but we can only work within the limits of the engine. so that means you are saying eletcbyte is ghetto.
well it’s how the engine was designed
i would like that but maybe in mugen 2.0