Sorry, but in my mind, if most offline tournaments are held this way and it’s generally believed that this format is a good way of eliminating fluke victories and truly assessing one’s skill, then an online tournament…ESPECIALLY given all of the random factors that can skew those results…should be held in this format at the very least.
Silver Rain 007, I appreciate the idea, but in looking at how it’s been done based on what we know from the past 15+ years versus what you’re proposing, there’s no way I would throw my money into that pot unless I absolutely knew I was much better than everyone else. That’s the only way I’d be able to overcome the “random” factor that deciding a match off of one game introduces.
After all…isn’t that the reason why the tournament version of Super Street Fighter 2 isn’t used now…I mean…beyond the fact that Super was highly unpopular?
Edit: Now that I see you’re doing it for free, that makes it better. The results will still be suspect, IMHO, but at least people won’t be losing their money via fluke losses or random lag.
Oh, I didn’t notice Silver Rain actually wanted to make it one single game! That’s pretty damn weird, considering SF games are so short. I would support much longer matches.
2-of-3 games sounds like the minimum, and I would be happy at either 2-of-3 or 3-of-5 rounds for each.
I think the thing that people have to understand about running tournaments is that you want your results, first and foremost, to be as accurate and fluke-free as possible. I look at it like bowling. Anybody can get one strike at any given time…but you don’t truly begin to see your overall score increase until you either start stringing those strikes together or you make spares when you don’t make strikes. It’s about who is more consistent…who can consistently mark in a frame and not leave a frame open…, not who has the most “shock and awe” factor.
Believe me, I have “shocked and awed” some pretty good players…in the first round. Sometimes, I was fortunate enough to actually do that two rounds in a row! Once they figured me out in the next round or game, however, they made me look like a one-trick pony…and kept doing so from then onward.
Tournaments should reward consistently good play, not “flash in the pan” play. What did Alex Valle just say over there in the Dee Jay thread? Something like…“Being the best is old news. Being consistent is where it’s at.” Great words from a great player.
Alright, I’ll give on the best two out of three matches. I think it may reduce some of the drama I’m going for, but eh, why mess with convention when it’s what makes the fans happy right? Also, I think some people may misunderstand, the first group is made up of round robin pool play in which each person plays each other person and the top 2 in each pool would make it into either semi-final pool play (depending on numbers) or a seeded final double elimination tournament. I completely agree once we get into tournament play that it should be double elimination best 2 out of 3 games. Also if we do best 2 out of 3 games it virtually eliminates the possibility of a draw final so then we would just total scores and get a top 2 in each pool.
And Shari, yes, ideally, I would love to have observers be people with recording capability, but I’m not sure that’s something that can be organized effectively on short notice. But if the first season is a success, then yeah, what I’d like to do is have a group of dedicated observers who would record matches, post them to a joint youtube account and we could ‘broadcast’ matches in that fashion. Ideally, if this were to get big enough, maybe we could even do a live event somewhere for the final group of 8.
Also, I want to say that I felt the Round Robin format was specifically trying to reward consistently good play while allowing for the tension of a single upset. Of course the idea of that being that maybe some surprises may get a few upsets and surprise some and advance out of pool play. But I want to stress that I’m flexible and the most important thing to me is to organize this type of event for the enjoyment of everyone.
Okay, I just thought about this. If we best two out of three games in round robin pool play as well, then the winner can take three points. If you lose and win one game you’ll get a point and if you lose 2-0 then you get zero. So then you’ll have a W-L-O Win-Loss-One Game and the top two scores will advance out of each pool. We’ll do it that way, keeping best two out of three games each game during pool play to help minimize lag impact and to provide more legitimacy to each result.
(BTW, I’m loving all the feedback on this, keep it coming, the more we perfect the process the more everyone will enjoy it and want to come back for season 2)
Also, just because you leave a message on the forum doesn’t necessarily mean I’ve put you down as a sign-up so if you want to participate still leave your gamertag and time zone.
I also agree that you shouldnt list your character you will be using. With the blind screen selection counter picking really doesnt happen unless someone knows who you play with only. Also I dont mind recording some of the matches but let me know in advance so I can make sure I can be there.
Well for most of us including me will have one character that they are most comfortable with. However there are a few people I’ve played enough times to know that all I have to do to make my life a lot easier is to counter-pick.
But they might not be in your pool and they might not get out into the tournament phase. I’m already curious to see what kind of records will get out of pool play. 7-0? 6-1? Maybe 5-1-1?
Well, first I need to know what time zone you’re in so I can put you in the appropriate pool. Then we’ll see about who you’re fighting first. You’ll play everyone in your pool at least once and then total scores will determine who advances to our tournament phase. But I think you’re in EST so that’s where I’m going to put you for now, if I’m wrong let me know…
Also, reminder: Cut off for sign up for World Warriors Season 1 will be Wednesday at midnight, with pool play hopefully to begin that weekend.
Also number 2: More people! More people! More people!
Silver Rain, I’m totally with you on the “drama” and “upset” factors, but you’re going to get that simply by having the tournament. Just look at the video from Evo.
You’ve been in a tournament before, right? Remember your first one? Didn’t your nerves produce enough drama? I know they did for me! Trust me…you get quality players in there (and you’ll get more of them if they feel their skill level matters when they enter) and you’ll have the drama you seek to produce.
Plus, to quote something I said in a thread regarding a SF4 tournament that was being put on that banned (ahem) “cheap and repeatable tactics”, when you look up the word “tournament”, it’s an event that supposed to bring out the best competition level in a player. The rules should be such, as I’ve said before, that skill matters more than a fluke dizzy into a combo ending with a super (and we know good and well those happen…and I’ve had a few, too).
(And, yes, I still say ToDs FTW ALL DAY, BAY BAY!!!)
Not usre if I understand the scoring, correct me if I’m wrong:
Winner in best of 3 gets 3 points
Loser (wins 1 of 3) gets 1 point
Loser (wins 0 of 2) gets 0 points
Was also wondering whether the winner of a match will be requried to pick the same character for the next match in the set? Thats the way its done at evo…
You are completely right on the scoring for pool play. I’ve given alot of thought to the same character thing. I definetly think that has to be the case when we get into tournament play, and I think we’ll play it safe for the first season and say you have to keep your character if you win.
And OJ, I want to thank you for your help in refining this process. I think you’ve been right on a couple things and that’s why I’ve changed how pool play works. When we get into tournament play yes I believe it’ll be pretty standard. My thought was that pool play would counter-balance flukes over the course of so many different matches while allowing for drama but then the lag issue came up and other stuff and I had to concede that point so you’re comments have really (not joking) been super helpful and I want to thank you for helping me refine this process for everyone’s benefit… now are you going to play or not??? LOL
First, it obviously has to be more than one game per opponent. As people said, 2 out of 3 is minimum.
Next, the whole bit about play a game with an observer, leave and rejoin to skip past observer’s turn, play again, etc…is how you’d do it if you want the observer to record matches. If no one is recording a particular match or if one of the players themselves is recording it, there is no need to go through all that. In theory, you’d need someone to verify the match result. In practice, you don’t. I am not aware of a single time in online Street Fighter history that someone disputed the match results. Maybe it’s just too ridiculous of a thing to do in a small community, not sure why it’s never been a problem exaclty. Anyway, you don’t need an observer to slow the whole process down, just to protect against something that is so unlikely.
Next, two things about character picking. 1) Do you have to keep your character if you win, during a given set against a given opponent? Yes, and no one will disagree with that I’m pretty sure. I have never even heard of a tournament that violated that rule.
Can you switch characters when you face a new opponent, and when you lose versus your current opponent? To me, this must be yes for it to be a “real tournament.” Otherwise, I don’t think the tournament is really valid in determining a rightful winner. Consider this situation that actually happened in GGXX. I played Chipp and Potemkin in casuals against the field before the tournament started. I won slightly more with Potemkin. Against a particular opponent, I lost like 10-0 with potemkin and won like 10-0 with Chipp. But that’s just one opponent, in general I won more with Potemkin. Because the tournament used the bad kind of rules, I had to declare my character ahead of time and stick to it. I did face that troublesome opponent by luck of the draw, even though I can beat him around 10-0 if we are each allowed to pick any character, I lost. I don’t feel this reflects who is better.
Or in SF terms, imagine if I could beat Thelo’s honda 10-0 with Ryu (not saying I would, but imagine). Then tournament rules force me to commit to one character and I pick Fei Long or something. If Thelo defeats me, that seems very unjust. In the example, he is incapable of beating my Ryu. To actually deserve to defeat me, he should have to: a) learn how to beat my Ryu with his Honda or b) learn how to beat my Ryu with some other character. But choice c) remain incapable of beating my Ryu, but advancing anyway because tournament rules prevented me from demonstrating that I cannot lose against him would be a dumb and unexciting choice. (Note to everyone, thelo is just an example, not saying he is bad or that he can’t win in reality.)
As for pools vs double elimination, maybe either can work.
