Hi my name is Roy. I like long walks on the beach, reading by hadouken light, and teleporting into U2.
Sorry Loyal didn’t that’s not what I meant, I only wanted to stress that to me he didn’t look a better player (which a win in this matchup should indicate), just that you lost of focus and ended up losing because of that.
I think that as long as you watch for those U1 opportunities and punish/prevent certain mixups attempts, you won’t have much trouble with the matchup.
Chun’s getting a little better in v2012, with the palm nerf we can’t break her down charge anymore :E
Not sure I get it, you Demon FAs or reaction? U1 is awesome for backdashes, but when they go that far (and Chun’s not the only one iirc) and are that fast, it’s too easy to screw up…
What I mean is when you see a focus attack and you are reasonably close you can sweep > U1 on reaction to the focus. I didn’t show it very well in this video, but it is something I have done before.
Chun players love to abuse their focus because of how great it is.
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That’s…great. I didn’t post that video as an example of Tokido’s reflexes or experience, I posted it as an example of his “strategy”. Strategy is independent of physical ability, it is the mental approach to the match, learning to do the things that will give you the best chance of winning
Approaching the match correctly is the first step to learning how to win matchups and hence the reason for the example, to show others what they should be doing win or lose.
i agree on approaching the match correctly is the way to win. but, more often than not the best strategy are the toughest to do because of opponent limiting that strategy. hence, you don’t see tokido doing the same strategy against better chun coz its not viable to do so.akuma can win the matchup because he’s capable doing keep-away and footsie plus vortex as bonus, but if the akuma failed at keeping away (end up in the corner) you’ll see a chun coming in and doing some good amount trouble, a better chunli would have the hasanshu hitting instead of getting focus like no tomorrow.
if you would have posted a video of tokido doing the same strategy against better chun who would have known akuma matchup well then i would have approved of it instead of arguing here.
i mean if i posted a match of me doing the same strategy and winning but the chunli is a noobass, nobody would have given me the approval, because all i did is just beating up a player who’s worst at the match-up. you get what im saying? then chun matchup is done already no point bothering abt chunli. there’s other character to worry about that constantly fly under radar those are to be worried more.
i won’t bother arguing anymore, else this is gonna end up to be another argue fest.
I don’t agre Ero, you basically wrote that the best strategy in a matchup won’t work against strong opponents. What are we supposed to do then? Go random? ò_O"
It’s a given that you won’t be throwing air fireball the whole match, especially when Chun’s pretty much screwed when you knock her down, but there’s no point in not keep doing that until chance arises - unless you can win by footsies because you’re playing someone weaker than you.
The guy is no Nemo, Nuki, Y24 etc, but the fact that such strategy is the “best” is only due to the fact that it gives her a hard time and limits Chun’s options to get in - not the other way around, just because that guy wasn’t an ultra elite player (he wasn’t even bad, come on, did you count how many Hazanshuus he got punished for and how many he landed?).
I was about to stop arguing.but…let me rephrase this…
sometimes if opponent conditioned you not to used the best strategy would you actually be stubborn and believe the best strategy will still work? or will there be another strategy that will perform better that the opponent will hate even more even though its not as good?
if the best strategy would be the video that shinakuma204 posted why the heck does it not done in all the matches? why does loyalsol chooses to play like that and get suffocated and those who’s having bit trouble with chun seems to be the same?
when you loses in footsie battle do you still try to actually follow by the book?
I am sure loyalsol knew the chun matchup damn well already, but watch loyalsol lose that money match. why not just choose to play according to what’s written? what went wrong?
did you realise the video of tokido vs nemo compared to tokido vs cardell is another story?
against cardell everything seems to be easy…all succesful nothing wrong easy win. against nemo he was basically almost playing like loyalsol vs toi.
can’t you see the situation is different?
I don’t need to count how many hazanshu he got punish and how many he landed. when he got punished he got punished big time. and when he landed he didn’t capitalise it enough. that’s all i see in general no need to start counting.
I have known people who prepared tons of work when they are about to fight certain jappa’s and they still end up getting blown up big time.
I agree that the matchup should roughly be played like tokido vs cardell. but that’s like getting tokido playing on easy mode. try doing the same against tougher opponent and the result might be surprisingly different.
if you try to prove something with a weak reference I am not going agree with it. and that video is just weak. sure everything seems to be right. if the video was done the same but against equal high level player I won’t even say a word but just agreed to it wholly.
if you post a video of you doing everything correct and yet there’s a difference in level say a 1000pp vs a 5000pp. that’s just weak.
I am saying if your a newbie and fighting against an experienced player. even if you play by the book you’re still gonna lose. and its especially dumb if you start x-copying high level gameplay when basic is pretty darn shit.
end of rant. someone will probably find problem with my text of complain and start arguing again, I will try to ignore it.
How hard the correct strategy to use is also irrelevant. If you want to win you will have to do the hard things.
And it should go without saying at this point that your opponent will try to resist your strategies. That doesn’t mean you stop doing the things you are supposed to do.
What?
Tokido employs the same strategy against all his Chun opponents.
Do you know what the word strategy means?
And none of that has to do with strategy, that has to do with execution.
Well you see I wasn’t looking for your approval, so that aspect was never a consideration.
People would not care about you smashing random Chun’s as an example of how to approach the matchup because you’re a nobody. It’s also why I didn’t post a vid of myself, or some socal Akuma, or whoever.
In all your confusion you’ve decided that this has something to do with your opponent. when it really has to do with the Akuma player. Hence why it is a video of Tokido, the definitive Akuma. We look to him for many strats on matchups regardless of his opponent because it isn’t his execution we are looking at it is his approach.
so why the same strategy didn’t work out as well against nemo?
if your strategy is looking out for hazanshu and sweeping for knockdown, if your opponent watches out for that and counter accordingly. you reckon thats fail execution?
fair enough, but sure get me irritated with bad example being posted. you sure know you’re posting in a forum and gonna get opinions.
it doesn’t have to be me posting a video, i just state that as an example of a video where higher skilled akuma doing a day-trip on a lower skilled chun.
i hope you understand i am not confused. all i am saying is that you have to put a reference of “equal standard” and see how the matchup goes. those godsgarden 1st to 10 or some kumite are an ideal example. not some tokido vs lower skilled player.
“his approach” won’t be done so well against another equal standard player.
i really can’t be fucked posting anymore with anything related to you. since you’re infamous for arguing for couple of pages and best start personal attacking people and such. not only that the post are getting pointless and nothing constructive comes out of it.
[media=youtube]86S5qgJWOZg[/media]
Just because you don’t win doesn’t mean you didn’t have the right idea.
i was just about to post that video as well…the same idea. but different result but i would have pretty much preferred that video for reference.
Because there is more to winning a match than just strategy, that should be obvious.
EDIT: Tokido beat Nemo 3-0 so I’m not even sure what you’re talking about.
For one if you watched that video and see that as Tokido’s strategy then you probably don’t understand that matchup very well.
Second failed execution is when you miss your openings and not when your opponent avoids being opened up.
Absolutely which is why I never told you not to post your opinion.
I didn’t post it as an example of an amazing match, so the skill gap is not relevant. Besides it’s not like that Chun was garbage, he would probably beat alot of players in this forum, including you.
Well you certainly are presenting confusion by bringing up things that have nothing to do with strategy.
This is about strategy, not tier lists or matchup charts or even the entirety of a match. Equal standards are posted to show the entirety of the matchup which includes stuff like execution, mind game, reads, etc…stuff that is more than just the strategy.
What makes you think that Tokido and Nemo of are equal skill, especially at that point?
You have arbitrarily decided that player X sucks but player Y is Tokido’s equal.
Didn’t Tokido beat Nemo 3-0 online?
Winning or losing has little to do with employing the correct strategy.
If that was the case why would you continue with the next bit?
Oh wait so this isn’t a personal attack?
Stop being a douche just because people don’t agree with you.
definitely there’s more to it that just what i have written, its just part of the strategy or a situation that arises. why don’t you explain the whole thing up then it did be a long text.
i am going to put it simple here.the strategy is right,but the strategy without the whole execution and mind games, read etc is kinda fake to me.
same strategy against nemo would be a better reference how hard can it get?
i do believe tokido and nemo are pretty equal. and though cardell isn’t a bad player and probably will be able to beat me he’s not on the same level as tokido. I could be a bit judgmental ,that just how i see it.
sure does to me.
i have been in the forum for quite a while and its quite obvious that you have never actually given up on any argument, so no really i don’t see why saying you’re infamous for arguing in this forum a personal attack, its more like a fact. anyone else disagree about that?
which is why i find it pointless to argue anymore but you’ve pretty much trying to pick up every sentence that i write that could be pinpointed and try to write up some smart stuff to argue again.
I’m not even sure what you are saying here.
And that is a completely different topic entirely. I am talking about strategy, not the game as a whole.
It’s not a better reference. That match is online. Playing online has different strategies to it because you are limited from doing exactly what you want to do.
I choose an offline major tourney match from the definitive Akuma player to showcase the strategy involved. Nothing is better or more relevant than players executing their best strategies in offline tourney matches when the most is at stake.
Apparently you disagree.
And that is fine, but since strategy has little to do with winning or losing or how close you and the opponent are in skill it really matters little if it’s a really good player or a really, really good player.
Strategy is independent of things like player skill, winning/losing, tier lists, whatever. A strategy once conceived can be applied to all those it is designed for regardless of their skill level. The only thing you need to do is find the most relevant or useful strategy, which is why I choose Tokido, because he is the definitive Akuma.
And that is why I asked you if you know what strategy means. I suggest you find out if you are not sure.
Sorry but I don’t give up on something I am right about.
If I say 2+2=4 and 3 other dudes say 2+2=25 should I give up? No.
It’s a passive/aggressive attack. It had nothing to do with anything that was being discussed.
Maybe you should consider that you simply don’t know what you’re talking about before trying to blame other factors as the reason people don’t agree with you or the reason a discussion continues longer than you prefer?
i am saying you could perhaps elaborate on that strategy in a whole. since you pretty much sorta said i did a “tunnel vision” on the strategy as focus the hasanshu
and that is where our opinion clashes, for a strategy to be valid you have to see the game as a whole as well. not just itself.
both the video tokido vs nemo compared to tokido vs cardell have same strategies applied. but i wouldn’t see tokido vs cardell as a good reference.
playing online in japan is almost similar to offline hence it doesn’t limit what they are doing, even if it does player of their caliber would have easily adjusted to it. those godsgarden online tourney are good indication and online or not in japan doesn’t matter much. else you’ve pretty much disregarded all this
sure choosing tokido as definitive akuma for reference is fine. like said again tokido vs nemo matches is much more relevant.
btw, i can only semi agree that strategy can be used regardless of skill level. some player x-copy certain strategy but the same strategy wouldn’t work due to opponent doing different stuff. its sorta like don’t try to walk before you even start standing kinda situation…at certain skill level its better to used other strategy imo.
it doesn’t occur to you that both aren’t wrong? argument goes both ways and sometimes can be both right. or worse hasn’t there been any situation that you are the one doing 2+2=5? because you’re always right eh?
heck you have been passive/aggresive attacking all the time insulting at people’s intelligence and such. when i say you love to argue, i am not saying to personal attack you, i hope you do notice you love doing that and what’s worse you keep posting in the forum with smart languages or vocabulary making your wrong facts look right and others will just give up on arguing with you in the end.
i hate pointless argument like this and it has come to the worse situation that i would want to avoid in the 1st place its already a page long. you have your view that strategy its a single entity by itself when i see strategy have to be applied in a whole. we can’t see it the same.
Do you really think that is all Tokido did in that fight?
Really?
The definition of strategy is not an opinion.
It seems as though you are confusing tactics with strategy. The strategy is to zone out your opponent. How you do that with fireballs, normals, space control would be the tactic.
I didn’t say to use Tokido’s tactics because every player has there own way of doing things.
Well if you don’t see why an offline tourney major is superior to online there really isn’t much more to discuss.
Online is and always will be inferior to offline. There is always a difference in online play, even in the best conditions like Japan. It could be close sure, but always inferior, and that is why online is not the ideal reference point.
But hey you can ask Tokido, or Mago or whoever the best players that show up to the next Shadowloo Showdown if online is just as good as offline. You don’t have to take my word for it.
Online is never more relevant.
Really?
My strategy is to punish jumps.
Seems to me that it doesn’t matter if it’s Daigo or the worst scrub you can find, if they jump you punish.
It did occur to me and so I reviewed my facts.
I’m not always right, but in this case you’re just wrong.
Asking if you know what a word means is an attack? Do I know if English is your first language or not? Did you even look up the word strategy? You are arguing from a position that makes me wonder if you understand the subject matter being discussed.
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I also said that I was a nobody. There are only two Akuma’s that people look to as definitive, Infiltration and Tokido. Neither of us are them, so as far as determining and defining how or what to do with Akuma is concerned the rest of us are generally…nobody.
That is simply a fact of the matter, unless you believe yourself to be a somebody in this game.
You aren’t confused at what strategy is?
Ok fine then - What is the definition of the word “strategy” as it would best apply to fighting games?
That wasn’t passive/aggressive I straight up called you a douche after your insult. I admit to that one.
This is how the world works, with language and vocabulary. This is what allows people to understand each other. Maybe you don’t concern yourself with such things, but I do.
You seem to be confusing tactics as strategy. Strategy and tactics are different things even if they are closely related.
i’ve said “tunnel vision” that you reckon that’s all i’ve seen which is not. hence i ask you to elaborate properly of whats your strategy that you seen in the match.
I think your not getting me, your strategy is valid, but to see it being applied in a harsh scenario and working is more relevant though you choose not to.
don’t get mistaken here. you can find other offline tourney of tokido vs nemo if you can find the link of tokido vs nemo in ggs2.5. that would be the best relevant ones. and by any means that online tourney is much a better comparison video that of yours. seriously.
I have asked before and they find it closely similar, and i’ve said already player their caliber don’t get affected by it much. heck offline monitor that lag and they still adjusted to it.
tokido vs cardell offline compared to tokido vs nemo online i’ll take the online ones anyday. however if there’s an offline version that that would be superior.
heck so if your opponent doesn’t jump there goes your strategy? if there’s one definitive strategy in dealing with certain char*player then really there’s no point discussing further
while the same goes for me that I am right, but I didn’t say your totally wrong.
your trying to insult person intelligence again? haven’t you had enough?
why don’t you define it then?
and you don’t seem to get the message that both strategy and tactic being applied together and achieving result instead of strategy alone.
are you using those words to allow people to understand each other or try to confuse people and make your wrong argument valid? see if you keep trying to use your classy term to make buff your post it just seems to me you’re being a hypocrite. you’ve been doing that for a whole lot.
I’m asking you what you think Tokido’s strategy was in that match.
What the fuck are you talking about?
That video is way old. Tokido’s game has improved vastly since mid 2010, hence why I would choose the newest and most relevant vid of him possible.
You are deluded.
“Closely similar” is not “as good” or exact.
Now you can drop this bullshit angle.
Then you can take that and keep living that delusion that online is the same.
This is completely irrelevant. The point is a strategy can be applied across the board which still stands despite your irrelevant response.
You’re wrong because you don’t know what the word “strategy” means.
What do you think the definition of the word “strategy” is?
Because I’m not the one who doesn’t know what it means.
What is the definition of the word “strategy” that you are using?
I was never talking about the tactics. I’ve already pointed this out multiple times.
People can only understand each other if they both are aware of what a word means.
So in light of that - What is the definition of the word “strategy” as it would best apply to fighting games?
You’re an idiot. lol
Interesting debate here… heh. Both sides have some truth to them. There are generally some strategies that you’re going to look at in certain match-ups (i.e., if Ryu or Sagat has two bars and U1, be very careful with your jumps and be extra wary of dropping combos/block strings), and those aren’t going to change too much with ability level. However, my first reaction is to identify more with the idea that you’re fighting the player first and foremost - I guess that’s how I typically approach strategy. I am always doing my best to think about my character specific match-up knowledge at the same time, but I rely and focus more on the other player’s mindset and habits. The best players are always going to be adapting, so while the Tokido vs. Chun match might be very helpful and display a nice starting point for an Akuma player trying to learn the MU, Ero_Oyaji seems to be saying that match-up specific flow charts are only going to take you so far against a skilled opponent, and I agree with that.