Also, Shin, you made your point on people “trying” harder in tournaments, but people take casuals seriously all the time. Sure they might experiment some but that’s how learning happens. People often play “worse” in tournaments as they limit their range of options (out of fear of loss), stunting their true ability. Obviously, the best players get through these mental blocks but your point that casuals are irrelevant “because the result doesn’t matter” is ridiculous.
You argued that the Ryu vs Akuma set between Tokido and Daigo was not representative of the matchup. I agree. Akuma vs Ryu at the absolute highest level of play would not look like that. However, the set is highly representative of Tokido vs Daigo at that time. The fact that it was casuals and not a tournament is irrelevant. Players of their caliber are always hungry for the W. Their individual equity to win (again, at that time) would be close to their equity to win under a tournament setting. Sure both of them probably punted some individual games but that’s just variance (what you would call choking in a tournament).
DF throw after hard knockdown at a distance where the reversal will whiff on the throw attempt. He previewed it on a godsgarden stream with Mago.
Heavy combo ST FP, fireball, fadc, stand jab, sweep.
Short jab short kara throw/overhead. This works simply because the chained normals can’t be interrupted and they push the opponent far enough so that they stop thinking about a DP.
I find that crossup tatsu is only good sparingly. Cross over palm is probably better, however there are places where you can do a meaty crossup tatsu that beats wake up DP. I haven’t analyzed the specifics of the spacing yet but I have seen Tokido do it many times.
To be honest Akuma’s vortex is much more effective on good players. Bad players don’t care enough to be afraid of your options. You need to gauge your opponent and adjust your pressure accordingly.
They’re called casuals for a reason, because people play them casually. When results don’t matter neither player is invested like they would be if the results did matter. That’s why outcomes of casuals has little meaning.
This really doesn’t add anything to what I had said. I never said that players don’t ever try in casuals, or that they are out to lose. I already covered the idea of players playing to win in casuals.
Thanks for the info. I always learn something new when I ask questions on the forum.
c.lk c.lp c.lk -> fp~kara throw will successfully grab Ryu? Will definitely have to work on this. I thought that after 2 c.short/jab we can grab but not after 3.
As a Ryu main, I use crossup tatsu a lot. I have talked to Gamerbee and he mentioned a concept of basically “the perfect crossup”. When someone does a crossup attack, it can be identified as on “the sweetspot” or not. If it is, then the only option is to block. If it is not, then we can crosscut (323121 / 1232123) to correctly DP. I think the only “safe” crossup tatsu is on wakeup, and yes, it needs to be deep.
What?! Would like some more information about this.
Anyway, I disagree that the Vortex is better on “good” players. Vs “Bad” players, we just need to constantly use setups that punish wakeup reversal DP (such as crossup palm) / setups that require nonintuitive responses (i.e. blocking tiger fb on wakeup)
And sigh, not going to argue the “casuals = casual” point with you. But I will explain this: you matter-of-factly stated that Alioune’s casuals with Tokido are not representative of the “true” matchup (which according to you = tournament settings). In a fantasy world where they were playing in a tournament for 40 virgins and eternal exaltation, you probably are correct. However, by swiftly dismissing his comment, you disrespect him in multiple ways. (1. It implies that he doesn’t actually understand the Cammy/Akuma matchup. 2. It implies that Tokido wasn’t really “trying” during the casuals (of COURSE he wasn’t, as it was ONLY casuals))
Again, if Alioune played a 50 set match with Tokido and it ended up being 60% in his favor, I would assume that Alioune would have 60% equity vs Tokido under tournament settings as well. That was my point. The problem is that the human mind has a very difficult time truly grasping what 60% means, hence when a good player loses it’s always a “brutal choke” and not just variance. I understand this as a professional poker player, and you should as well, seeing how Akuma’s game revolves around 50/50s and having your opponent guess wrong. If you opponent happens to guess correctly multiple times, well that obviously has a huge outcome on the results of the match, be it during a tournament or not.
You need to walk forward a bit, just a little bit.
Yeah, I believe Tokido has a setup where he can do this crossup tatsu so that it can’t be DP’d. Ryu should be able to do it more easily since his crossup tatsu is better than Akuma’s.
It’s pretty wild. There is a spot/timing where you can go for a DF throw on their wake up and if they reversal DP you fly past. I don’t know exactly how it’s done myself, but when I hook up with my training partners I’ll test to find out.
Well the concept of the vortex is a collection of wake up pressure that you can mix up to continue to generate damage. With this in mind it really only works on good players who understand your options.
What you’re suggesting isn’t really a vortex anymore, it’s just repetition of options that punish scrubs. I suppose it is still technically Akuma’s vortex since you are reading the opponent and using the option best suited for your read.
I guess I should reword what I mean and say that mix up is more effective against good players than bad ones.
I actually did not say that exactly. I said casuals were not a good indicator of the matchups. There is still some value to casuals, but there is more value in competitive play.
It’s not disrespect to point out that casuals aren’t the best indicator of a matchup. That should be obvious.
Why is a high stakes cash game different than playing your buddies for fun?
If you don’t think they are different then we can agree to disagree. However if you do find them to be different then you will probably better understand my point.
Absolutely. Casuals are certainly useful and vital to getting better.
hp>tatsu>sweep on sagat, then walk up forward a little and do light df throw.TU will miss and works on rog + c viper ( i think) and there are a lot of other distances for it but if the person holds forward they would walk right under you and you can beat it with delay dp.
I do have to agree with this to an extent. I do still think that even basic mix ups count toward the vortex.
Though for sure that a better player who actually considers the threats you can open up more options against than someone who just applies one counter measure (Like SRK on wake up). For instance against a bad Ryu I would never just jump in with j.HK, but against better Ryu’s I can set up the j.HK by using empty jump set ups. When the player starts blocking low or trying to grab me then I can slip the j.HK in for a nice combo.
One of my old quotes (Which I notice superlollo is still sporting quite nicely ) fits this quite well “Sometimes the other player needs a brain for you to outsmart him”
I do have to disagree. The factors in both tournies and casuals are player specific and not character specific. Some players you play against in casuals are beasts, but you throw them in the pressure cooker and they fall apart. Conversely some players thrive under pressure. Those are all factors you can’t measure, that is why you have a branch of mathematics called statistics and probability. Though again those deal with the players not the characters.
I would actually be interested to do a statistical break down of the match up. I need to put the math degree I am getting in a week to good use.
I looked around but wasn’t able to find anything in a reasonable amount of time, so…would someone mind spelling out the Ryu corner unblockable setup again? I would like to add it to the Matchup Thread.
The unblockable works Vs Ryu, Ken & Makoto (Richard was the first person discovering/mentioning it on these forums IIRC):
Forward throw in either corner, immediately dash twice then jump-in mk, if done properly the opponent can’t block it in any position (standing or crouching normal/x-up block), unless people have figured out a way to block it late or something recently (I haven’t been to these boards for months…). Invincible reversals would whiff and give you a free punish, backdashes can be option selected with sweep . Most option used to get out from what I’ve seen is focus dash out of the corner, but they’re still going to eat the absorbed jump mk + followed up attack (i.e st.hp or cr.mk).
Someone please correct me if what I mentioned is outdated/wrong.
As for the argument about how matchups should be figured out, I’m gonna have to backup superlollo here, IMO there’s no way to calculate a matchup JUST based on tournament matches/results. Casual matches sets are usually a lot longer and help give a better view of the matchup, just because it’s casual doesn’t mean the players won’t give it their best, simple things such as arcade BP ranks or reputation could be enough to let these guys take the matches seriously.
I’m not saying that torunament results mean nothing when it comes to matchups, IMO tournament results are better to show who’s the superior PLAYER not character because a lot of it has to do with how the Player handles pressure and adapts in a very short amount of time against random tactics.
Where did I say I didn’t understand it? In fact I had already covered it.
You think the “human factor” is some catch all to promote casual play as being more relevant, while ignoring the fact that the human factor exists equally in both casual play as it does competitive.(pressure in competitive, indifference or lack of caring in casuals) However in competitive play both players are more likely to be invested in the outcome of the match and that’s what makes it superior.
There is no “lack of caring” in casual play, if I lose in casuals i’m still gonna get pissed because I was playing to win and not just to “test stuff” only because it was casuals.
The thing is you can not prove your statements as much as I can prove mine. The funny thing is everyone can be right and because of that everyone one is just as wrong as the next guy.
I could make the case that in some matches one player is way above the other player and as a result doesn’t care much about the match and goes on auto pilot even though it is a tournament setting. Hell I know there are cases where a good player looks down on his opponent and ends up losing the match because he wasn’t playing at full speed.
In fact there was a great example from the stream just this last week where Justin Wong intentionally picked Phoenix in the MvC3 losers finals as his point character just to protest Phoenix. He intentionally set up a bad team to make sure his Phoenix died which in the end handicapped him. He ended up losing the set. This was a major tournament with money on the line and it was the losers finals.
Again your statement is true in some cases and false in others. That is human specific which is too random to make an definitive statement. You can not say every match ever played is exactly like you say when we know for a fact this is only true sometimes.
There are ways to prove what you say, but you would need to do a statistical analysis.
) fits this quite well “Sometimes the other player needs a brain for you to outsmart him”