Eh, casuals aren’t a good indicator of what the matchup is really like.
The Tokido vs Daigo 100 game set seemed pretty accurate for the Akuma vs Ryu matchup, imo.
I would say not at all. At that time Tokido had very little anti Ryu setups and more importantly did not know about Akuma’s unblockable.
…care to explain?
If anything I think they’re much better than tournament matches when it comes to seeing how the matchup looks like.
There are many factors in a tournament that can make the matchup seems different than it really is (tournament experience, nerves, emotions). In such a long casual set on the contrary no one has nothing to lose and you can play relaxed and see how it’s really like…besides, in a torunament you’ll almost never have 10+ straight matches to actually make a matchup chart
He has all the setups he has now EXCEPT the unblockable (which is indeed big)…but it’s not like daigo got thrown many times while he has in the corner anyways
In a casual set players don’t need to care about the outcome of a match and therefore can play as recklessly as they like. Without a consequence attached to the outcome how the match would really go gets skewed with gimmicks and reckless play. This lack of concern benefits some characters and not others.
That’s ridiculous. That’s like saying preseason matches are better at determining how good teams are than playoff matches.
No he didn’t. His anti Ryu stuff and setups has evolved alot since that match, probably due to the results.
DF throw dash ex DF crossup divekick is one of the big ones.
That’s not really relevant. Having the unblockable changes the entire complexion of the match. Ryu now has to avoid the corner. The Akuma player will adjust his combos to push the Ryu to the corner. Once in the corner the threat of being thrown for fear of losing the round is a mind game in itself. It opens the Ryu up to more counterhit setups and risks to escape.
you’re forgetting about one thing: the player and the tournament format. By your definition of “matchups” balrog should have an advantage over akuma because tokido lost to pr rog.
DF throw dash ex flip won’t change jack shit in the ryu matchup once the player has seen it once and knows how to block it. the unblockable is a game breaker, something that does actually change the matchup, that stupid gimmick isn’t. There are tons of way to make ryu block on wakeup anyways, even after df throw. And your character flashing yellow actually only makes it easier to block once your opponent has seen it once.
anyways, you got the best akuma player in the world (tokido) and the best/2nd best cammy player in the world (alioune) both telling you that cammy has the advantage and you’re still arguing about it?
This is some of the most flawed logic possible.
Tokido vs PR Rog is not the only instance of the Akuma/Rog matchup in a tourney. Nobody creates a tier list from the results of one tourney.
My definition of matchups, and likey everybody for that matter, is not based on one set of results.
And that is just one of the many ways to open a player up.
So Ryu decides to block and he is opened up to a DF throw, resetting the situation.
Where did I say Cammy isn’t at an advantage? You are the one who asked for clarification on the discussion.
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Yeah and sako won vs tokido in a tournament and so did evans with fei long…so what? You just said it yourself, tournament results cannot be used to make matchup charts (sets are too short and the players difference in experience can make the result flawed). On the contrary, casual sets, especially long ones, really show how the matchup is like (if the players are of similar skill). I think everyone would agree with that.
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After a demon flip throw any smart ryu will mostly block anyways…you can do dash down mk dive kick, dash crossup/non crossup air fireball, dash lk flip kick and all of those will either beat or trade (in your favour) with all of ryu’s srk…Personally, I think that doing dash ex flip is just wasting a bar if you’re playing vs someone like daigo…he’ll probably block anyways whatever you do (and doing dash lk flip throw is still risky as hell if he has ultra, even without 2 bars).
Point being, when i’m playing a good ryu that knows when and how to take risks i’d still never do df throw dash lk flip throw if he has ultra and i’d do it anyways, even without conditioning him with ex flip, if he hasn’t.
Btw, how do you see the akuma v ryu matchup now that akuma has the unblockable…still in ryu’s favouror has it shifted?
I never said that. I said you can’t use a single set of results to determine matchups.
Casuals only show how things go when players don’t need to care. Pre-season vs playoffs.
And no, most people would not agree with the idea that casuals are the best indicator of matchups. Certainly not tourney players.
Casuals are next to meaningless. It’s extended practice against a real opponent, nothing more.
The point is the more setups the more things the opponent needs to consider on defense. Tokido had way less setups when he played Daigo than he does now.
I think it’s now 50/50.
However due to each characters nature the Akuma player still has a slight practical disadvantage because of execution and Ryu can still be effective in herp derp mode. Since the disadvantage is based on theoretical scenario ie: dropped execution or some error on the Akuma’s players part, I can’t quantify this into a matchup number, so I say 50/50.
The pre season vs playoffs doesn’t make ANY sense when talking about matchups…matchups are between characters, not between people…while teams (be it football, basketball of hockey) are entirely made of people.
One shouldn’t really take the human factor in when talking about matchups, and in tournament play the human factor means A LOT. And it surely means A LOT MORE than in casuals, so this should make casuals a better representation of matchups (remember, character vs character, not character+player vs character+player). My english is bad, but does this make sense?
For example I know for sure that I can beat some people pretty easily when playing casuals but in the past I lost in tournament vs the very same people because I went to like 5 tournies in my life while they had been going for years. This doesn’t mean that they played differently from casuals, it means that I played a lot worse than in casuals because of emotions and tension. And this has nothing, ZERO, to do with the matchup
People drive the characters, in both tournies and casuals. However in tournies you are playing for something, so you try to play your best. In casuals you aren’t playing for anything, so you don’t need to give a shit.
Sure, but the human factor exists in casuals as well, so that would also disqualify casual results.
When faced with two options involving the human factor to better represent the matchups - casuals, that don’t mean anything and tournies or organized competitive, that do mean something I would defer to the latter.
The human factor is equally applied to both. Who is to say one player in casuals isn’t going all out and the other doesn’t care? While the same scenario can be applied to tournies at least in a tourney both players are more likely to be equally invested in the match.
I’m not sure how you would ever think casuals means anything. Players lose to other players in casuals that they would never lose to in a tourney or competitive match, simply because they isn’t a reason to play at you’re best in a casual match.
Casuals have no consequences to losing and therefore there is little reason for players to be at their best. Matchups charts aren’t based on two players not caring if they win or not.
The same can be said the other way around. Players lose to other players in tournaments that they’d never lose to in casuals.
Last week you admitted yourself that you play better in casuals than in tournaments because there is a lot less stress. I often see people playing a lot better in casuals than in tournaments… There are way more missed combos in tournaments for example…or people maybe not going for the harder link because they don’t wanna risk fucking up.
Believe it or not if you take player A (really good with a lot of tournament experience) and player B (even better than player A but hasn’t been going to 10 tournies a year for the last 5 years) player A will ALWAYS win in a tournament setting while he’s probably gonna lose in a casual ft.10. That’s because in casuals you CAN always play at your best if you want, while in a tournament, even if you want to, playing at your best isn’t possible unless you have lots of experience.
Your argument has it’s logic, but so has mine…if anything we could say that they mean the same when making matchup charts. Besides, even in casuals, no one is playing to lose. I don’t know about you, but when i’m playing casuals i’m still trying to win and I don’t think Tokido was just fucking around in that 50 match set vs Alioune.
It sure can, but nobody cares how good somebody is in casuals.
No I didn’t.
In fact I generally play far better in a tourney than in casuals.
Great, but nobody cares about a casual set, which is one of the reasons why some players do well in casuals - because you don’t need to care.
You could say that but matchup charts are based around the idea of both players being invested equally, trying to win. That is more likely to happen in a competitive environment.
Of course not, but it doesn’t matter if you do lose, so you don’t have to play as hard as possible or as smart as you can or pay attention to what is happening in the match.
No consequence to losing means you don’t need to play your best.
Nobody plays to lose, but if you think that players have the same intensity and approach in casuals as a tourney you would be wrong.
Are there any stunfest replays? I tried to watch the stream but couldn’t find a schedule, and my french isn’t good enough.
[media=youtube]g_qipyTXoG8[/media]
nice setup vs cammy
That setup works on everybody I think. I personally end it with an ex tatsu to keep them in the corner. You can also dash DF kick in the corner as well.
?.. yeah whatever , u know all sir.
I gave my reasons. Never said I knew all, but like it or not I do know what I’m talking about.
…whatever…
BTW, what is your tourney record against Tokido…? Yeah…
LOL. ShinAkuma and rolypoly (sorry, I mean, superlollo) are flirting it up in every thread. I have to admit Shin, I respect your knowledge but I think you might have some light Aspergers. You go far beyond the call of duty to defend your points on the internets.
More importantly, I would like to hear more about these anti-Ryu setups that Tokido didn’t know at the time. My go-to ones are:
f.throw -> st.hk -> hk demon (stuff reversal)
f.throw -> l.tatsu -> hk demon (not really sure the merits of this)
f.throw -> dash dash -> crossup tatsu
after demon:
tiger knee fireball for the crossup
I know about mixing in df.throw, but it’s only an effective mindgame if he actually hesitates on throwing out the reversal (which currently smash my “setups”). On youtube “Akuma mixup” gives some help but it seems some are outdated or rely on v. strict timing (dash dash command divekick after f.throw).
No one should take ShinAkuma204’s match-up experience seriously. All of his information is from his own personal experiences playing other no names which means shit to everyone else just how everyone elses means shit to him.