I mean meaty Jab os gets everything. So you have to face his close range pressies of eat os ex upper or os ultra
So you’re agreeing with me: don’t teleport or you’ll eat an OS or reaction ultra.
We were talking about wakeup mixups and meaty jab is not a mixup…you can block that shit 100%. Of course he can then tick throw/frame trap you, but i think that vs rog it’s better to backdash/teleport AFTER your wakeup if you really have to. Teleporting on wakeup is really dangerous but it’s unpunished most of the times and that’s why a lot of akuma’s keep abusing it.
Rog’s normals range and ability to easily close the distance keep him dangerous from outside your DP range.
He can still chase with TAP. However that is neither here nor there.
That may be true, but my point is you need to represent your options so the opponent is forced to think about it.
Except this isn’t really true.
Look at Beat By Contest. Tokido teleported all over Alioune, and he got punished like twice? Compare that to when you played Alioune. You said he punished you every time. And the reason is Tokido represented his other options and Alioune was aware that Tokido has other effective options, so he has something else to think about.
When you give your opponent something more to think about it makes your modiocre options even better. I’m not saying you disagree, just pointing it out.
Tokido v. Alioune (beat by contest WF)
**
3 wakeup teleports:** alioune punished one with drill and 2 went unpunished, but he didn’t have ultra and only 2 of those knockdowns were via cannon drill, the other was caused by a cannon spike and you can’t really do shit to punish a quickstand teleport after that one. So to wrap it up, out of 2 knockdowns were he COULD have punished Tokido, he punished him once…50%, that’s good considering it was a winners final of a major and it was vs Tokido.
**
3 teleports during pressure:** 1 punished with ultra, one came when he was going for a throw (no time to punish because of whiff throw animation) and one actually went unpunished (and alioune didn’t have ultra). Again, if we look at the times were he COULD have punished it’s a 50%.
This is just to show that tokido wasn’t “teleporting all over alioune”. Of course it’s not really possible to punish 100% of the times, but a good player will make you seriously regret your teleporting habits if you’re used to teleport all the time.
I also just looked at the tokido vs pr rog GF and tokido got hit by ultra TWICE for using a stupid teleport and lost both rounds because of it…and he had more than 50% health both times, clearly situations where it wasn’t worth the risk of doing a teleport.
Other than that, i’m not saying that akuma should never teleport (that would be dumb), I was just saying that most akuma’s teleport WAY too much, and that it shouldn’t surprise anyone that a top player like Eita wasn’t using teleport vs a mediocre balrog.
Seriously, if he’s at (boxer’s) sweep or even (boxer’s) c.mk range, why the hell would i want to teleport? From that distance he would most likely not the able to punish a backdash with ultra ON REACTION and he cannot OS shit from that distance. Just back, why suicide using teleport when you can just backdash (or simply block since he’s not close anyways)?
[media=youtube]Po4F1f5tr3I[/media]
Teleport count was actually 8. 8 ports in 5 rounds is alot of defensive teleports, I should know, I teleport alot and it’s exactly the same number of ports I used in the first 5 rounds against KillaSasa in that vid you were critiquing him on and touting Alioune.
[media=youtube]IQEX_FtxVt4[/media]
All ports from Tokido were from in close, meaning punishable.
So 2/8 is what, 25%. If I’m only gonna get a 25% punish I’ll take those odds.
25% is a far cry from…
…the 90% you experienced. (and Tokido didn’t have any of his backdashes punished)
Now either you were teleporting and backdashing 20 times a round in such an obvious manner to be punished every time or Tokido gave Alioune more to think about than you did, hence making the teleport more effective.
Now it’s possible it is the former, but I’m betting on the latter.
I think the reason isn’t that port isn’t good or easily punished, Eita just had zero fear of that Rog. He sure ported often against Pikagoma.
sigh
I hate it when Shin and Lollo argue like this… Not because it’s stupid, but because they both have valid points and as a “scrub” Akuma, I find myself wondering which side is right? On the whole, I agree with Shin on why Eita didn’t have any reason to fear that Rog player. At the same time, I think Superlollo’s right too: I’ve played against many “decent” players who would be waiting on me to try and teleport out on wakeup to punish me hard. Nevermind punishing me on my 8th TP attempt, try first or second attempt…
I believe that Shin’s right when he says you have to pay more attention to the character matchup than the player who’s using him and so base your gameplan on what your options are against his/her options. At the same time though, just because you’re playing against a Rog or a Cammy, doesn’t mean the person using him will use the same exact tactics as everyone else.
There’s just too many variables to account here in order to say one’s right over the other.
Hindsight is always 20/20 too. When you’re balls deep in a match a lot of the over-analytical observations folks catch from the replay doesn’t always enter the player’s head in the heat of the moment. We can’t always make pixel perfect decisions and sometimes poor choices are a given.
I think you make a good point re: opponents not always reacting to situations in the same way or using canned responses that we’re likely to expect. Sometimes one can get away with stuff that others would quite easily deal with. I guess the trick is not letting those little gambles become a prevalent part of your game-plan if they work on one opponent.
There was a video of a tournament a ways back where the Akuma player pulled a legendary bnb-s. hp reset-dive kick crossup-bnb win in round 2, but lost the overall tournament. The video uploader had “so impressive” I think in the comments. Does anyone know where this video is on Youtube?
I’ll cut it short: Please stop lying to yourself: those 8 teleports were NOT all punishable. How is alioune supposed to punish a teleport after hitting someone with a dp? or after whiffing a throw?
When i’m talking about teleports that alioune will punish i’m talking about those after cannon drills knockdowns…and he will punish those most of the times. And those are the ones you were doing most vs Sasa.
Also consider that playing online confortably on your couch (like alioune was probably doing vs me when he punished most of my teleports, and i don’t teleport much, look at my replays) is a lot different that playing in the WF of a MAJOR vs TOKIDO. You just can’t be as relaxed and play in the same way. Yet he still punished most of the actually punishable teleports that Tokido did. And it’s not like Tokido wasted him, all the round were really close. If anything Alioune could’ve been smarter in baiting those mashed DPs, he usually doesn’t fall for that stuff more than once…but then again, he probably wasn’t expecting it from someone like Tokido. Still mad props to tokido for winning.
Anyways, we were talking about Rog in the first place anyways. I totally agree that Eita wasn’t teleporting because he had zero fear of that balrog player (remeber when I said it was no wonder that a top player like Eita wasn’t teleporting against a mediocre balrog like that?). Generally you shouldn’t fear balrog that much on your wakeup no matter how good the other player is. Pikagoma plays abel, it’s like comparing apples to oranges. Abel has one of the scariest wakeup mixups in the game. Rog has Z E R O mixups.
That spike was FADC’d. Not hard at all in fact.
The ports in question were from in tight, Alioune just made a poor read. Doesn’t make the port any less punishable.
Going by your new “criteria” there was only two punishable ports in that vid of me and Sasa.
Is right here.
I don’t know about you but I could swear you actually said he would punish every port. Now that we know that isn’t the case or maybe it’s true when good players play online scrubs.
Whatever the case what you said then and what you are saying now is two completely different stories.
So who needs to stop lying to themselves?
I’m sure it was different. It’s different for me when I go to tournies.
He punished 25%. That hardly qualifies as “most”.
I never commented on the difficulty of the match.
Mixup isn’t the only reason to fear an opponent on your wake up.
That was just a set between Infiltration and Poongko. That account was taken off of youtube so the vid is likely gone.
I sorta knew it was gonna end like this but…ok you’re right, teleporting on wakeup vs balrog is really smart because he can trash you on wakeup with his 1000 options if you don’t…wonder what you’re supposed to do vs akuma then.
Are you even paying attention to anything being said? You just don’t get it. There are reasons to port against Rog, and you will never understand them with this online scrub mentality.
This is exactly like the last debate, where I said the Cammy/Akuma match is close and you ran your mouth about it being 7/3 and you would bet the farm on Alioune vs Tokido.
Look how that turned out.
Tokido won in singles, alioune won in teams, that’s how it turned out.
I don’t see were the scrub mentality is in saying that it’s normal not to use as many teleports vs. a straightforward character like balrog as you would vs a heavy mixup character like abel, rufus or akuma.
Look at tokido eating raw ultras vs pr rog and losing 2 rounds where he had a huge life advantage and come back to me.
Yeah, it turned out that Alioune didn’t body Tokido. It turned out that matchup is not 7/3.
The scrub mentality is putting your hands over your ears and not listening. That’s what scrubs do, they have an incorrect idea about the game and have zero interest in listening to anything contrary.
Look, I was thinking the same about you…we have similar ideas after all!
I’ll also quote myself so you can go have a look
We already know how good your ideas are.
Cammy 7/3 vs Akuma?
Alioune would body Tokido?
Yep, your a shit idea machine.
LOL
Awesome. Now when somebody argues that it is impossible to punish bad ports you may be on to something.
I was not the only one supporting the idea that Alioune would body Tokido…And well, he lost once and won once. Considering how tokido has 100x the experience (fighting games in general) and 1’000’000’000x the tournament experience that Alioune has, we can safely say that Cammy is a bad matchup for akuma…Probably not 7-3 but probably not “only a slight disadv. for akuma” like you said.
Funny how that wasn’t a consideration when you were sure Tokido would get bodied.
Chocolo spoke to Tokido at BBC and he confirmed my thoughts on the matchup.
Strange, he didn’t look happy when Sako counter picked him with cammy in GF.
EDIT for your chocolillo quote: Saying that the matchup is not “horrible” doesn’t mean it’s only very slightly in cammy’s favour. Besides, in that quote chocolo is expressing his own opinion