This brings up an interesting issue. What if somebody built a custom stick with a really screwy button layout specifically to make that kind of thing super easy to do and then, somehow, based their entire game around that? The buttons themselves would still have the same commands. They’d just be laid out in a really funky way essentially allowing the player to do things most players would find impossible unless using the funky stick. Is that permissible?
what?
so if I’m a pad player in a tourney it would be dishonorable to use the 3/p 3/k buttons for ultras in sf4?
This is gonna maybe sound dumb and i may get neg repped to shit but isn’t our goal sbo? If we play with messed up controllers and console characters aren’t we alienating ourselves from japanese competition? I just feel like that should be our goal since it always has been and they are still the best
I’ve thought of that sort of thing before.
This was sort of brought up in the thread about keyboards as fighting game controller. On a keyboard you can map the direction keys to be something ASDF being LDRU. 720’s get really easy on that setup.
I’m guessing this sort of thing should be allowable though. Players seem to agree that you can lay out your buttons in whatever pattern you want, as long as everyone has the same number of buttons (whether they include PPP or KKK is a seperate issue).
What you certainly can’t do though is wire up your own manual button binding or duplicate buttons. A MVC2 player who wired up his own 2P and 2K buttons would surely be disqualified immediately.
I would say no. The goal is to win EVO. If you can get that far then you can start worrying about the Japanese:rofl:
Our scene is so different from theirs, playing by their rules alone is not going to be a good solution.
Heh, I never even considered using the Turbo features. Heck, even the 3xP and 3xK macros which are built into the game by default I don’t use, because I switched my TE to a six-button layout.
And actually, once I dual-modded my TE, I disabled the Turbo features built into that panel almost entirely - the Turbo button is now my select button, as a matter of fact. (Used the Select area in the back for a Neutrik jack.)
But I was just thinking, while I was doing all my work, it just never crossed my mind that Turbo would be useful to me, since I know that using Turbos would never be allowed in a competitive environment.
EDIT: I have a few guys in my local comp who are dedicated pad warriors, and I never had an issue with them using 3xP or 3xK for their ultras or whatnot. Although it is kinda annoying when a certain one of them maps the ‘Throw’ macro. I mean… the LP and LK buttons are right there… but it’s a minor complaint to me. They both use the Mad Catz pads btw.
I think so far the general consensus is that turbo is never allowed, but 3p/3k for pad players is a gray area.
I’m kind of split on the idea. You can’t allow it for pad players but not stick players. And at the same time you can’t just allow it for ultras, and not allow it for other moves and characters that may benefit from it for specials.
Too many variables. See, it’s ok for a stick player to mod his shit to easy mode status as far as sticks are concerned(Whatever gate or buttons make his life easier), but if I change a button because my pad doesn’t have 6 face buttons that make life easier for SF, I’m in deep shit.
What the fuck? Isn’t tricking your stick out akin to opening the arcade machine for your own convenience?
There were 1024 players at Evo this year, and a thousand more across the country that compete in SFIV at smaller tournaments and don’t go to Evo.
Out of all of those people we sent what, like 5 or less players for SFIV at SBO?
It might be everyone’s goal, but in the end it doesn’t really matter. Very few of the people this debate affects will ever play in an arcade only Japanese competition.
No, it’s not.
Why not?
Honestly, I think that for any tournament or whatever, the controller settings need to be set to default. Whether its Controller A,B, C or Arcade Stick A, B, C.
No Focus Attack binding, no Throw Binding, no taunt binding.
Personally, I’ve never had to deal with 3K/3P buttons because of the days of playing on a Hori EX2 where theres only 6 buttons, but whatever.
But what would the rule be on turbo, if you’re caught using it you’re dqed or you lose the round or what?
For real. I don’t see the problem in that. Might make you look stupid as a motherfucker though. You’ve got all of your buttons in a very convenient spot i.e. in your face and under one palm.
But is that just because it hasn’t really become an issue that we’re willing to allow it?
I clearly can’t come up with any examples but imagine if in…I don’t know…Street Fighter V, a certain button series involving holding down some and pushing others creates some weird situation where Balrog can become downright nasty. Doing this on a normal layout, however, is bitch hard requiring all kinds of weird contortions. But if you manage to do it, you can win the match rather handily. It’s just shy of being WTFBroke and most of the risk of doing it revolves around the actual contortion being the gamble. You take the chance of doing this weird move at the cost of your ability to do other ordinary things while you’re twisting your hand around. Or worse, it just plain can’t be done on a standard layout.
Suddenly somebody cooks up a screwy custom stick with a button layout tailored to make this move piss easy. Then he learns to work his game around this new layout so that he can essentially do everything but now can also do this funky move…every single time…without contorting his hand. If this is allowed what does that do for other Balrog players? “Get this funky new stick, pick some other character, or deal with carpal tunnel?”
I suppose in that case it’ll be clear cut enough to issue a case specific rule. But it’s still something to think about, if only for fun. The idea that we allow people to customize sticks because it’s not that big of a deal…until perhaps one day it becomes one.
As a tournament organiser, when compiling a list of rules for our national tournament I specifically went through all of Evo’s rules. One such rule states that ‘Hardware macros, rapid-fire, or other hardware assisted mechanisms are strictly forbidden.’ - however DOES allow in-game mappings (and if a game were to include the ability for software macros, heaven forbid, this clause would allow that also).
People arguing that this is an ‘unwritten rule’ I’m afraid have it all wrong - the whole point of written rules is to cover all these eventualities. Anything not written as banned must be assumed to be valid.
I would say that a tournament that has not expressly banned turbos, and only has done so as an oversight, would be remiss in disqualifying a competitor who was found to use turbos. Either they must be allowed to continue using turbos, or simply told not to use them from now on.
As with all rules, it’s entirely up to the tournament admins to decide whether this issue should be addressed and banned or not - I know I’m against it, and so ban it expressly. I urge any other organisers who feel the same to make it clear in their own rules. And beyond that: also have a good read through the whole Evo rules, see if you’ve missed anything else that really should be in there too.
Very good issue to raise, CaliPower.
yeah irony is pretty hilarious. I cant help but laugh every time I see a TE stick. turbo for the official TOURNAMENT arcade stick…
This has been a issue with the TE sticks from day one. Its a shame we have to even worry about it. Ban it… everywhere.
prob not an issue for sf4 but for sc4-evo2k9 you were allowed to map multiple buttons to one command like having two A buttons and two B buttons. resulted in the hilde-hate fest and death of sc4.
banning turbo, macro and duplicate function buttons should be banned. all in the same boat.
Quite the opposite.
Like some have said regarding the arcade release or lack of for SSFIV, Japanese people have the same access to consoles and the extra characters and options that we do. And the NA + Europe + whatever else non-asian fighting game scene is if not greater in skill, larger in size (combined), and console based. Perhaps are limiting themselves and alienating from worldwide competition.
Great thread… lots of valid points from different sides of the boat.
I’ll throw in my $0.02.
I have about ~550 hours logged in to SF4, last time I checked my stats page. Of those ~550 hours, my first ~250 to ~275 hours were played on a Mad Catz Fight Pad (ONLY because of the unbelievable scarcity of sticks at that point in time, NOT because it was my first choice). Back then, I mained Balrog. I got very accustomed to using the macro button for his turn around punch, because it is borderline impossible otherwise (and I have BIG hands). I tried it, but it was just an ergonomical fucking nightmare. So fast forward to today, and I will openly admit that the only time I (sub)consciously use the macro is if I’m playing Balrog on my stick, and I’ll use the right-center part of my palm to hold the macro down to use the TAP — just because I was so accustomed to doing so with the pad. Am I the only one here who was conditioned to use the macro on a pad (by default, NOT by choice), who still has the inclination to use it on a stick?
I now main Dhalsim, and when I do ANYBODY’S ultra, I’ll use do the three-button ultra method 95% of the time. Once in a blue moon I’ll use the macro w/o thinking, but it doesn’t feel natural.
As for the Turbo debate? FUCK turbo.
Dude, shut the fuck up.