These are the only nerfs I think Vergil needs.
- Spiral Swords cost 2 meter but activating Sword Storm and Blistering Sword are free.
- 800,000 vitality
Vitality is none issue. Sword Swords needs fixing though. Some of his hitboxes need fixing as well.
You have to be very careful with Vergil. He’s the type of character that the wrong nerf can shoot him to bottom tier very easily.
There needs to be a universal nerf to hit spheres in general. They shouldn’t hit behind your character when you use them, ie Helm Breaker and Foot Dive.
My changes to Vergil would probably upset a lot of people, and I don’t even play the character. I think hes obviously one of the strongest characters, if not the strongest for practical play.
The biggest change for Vergil that i’d like to see, is that I want him to be able to whiff cancel his normals. He feels so non-Marvel-ish because he can’t do this without Devil Trigger, and it basically forces people to play him like a Teleport+Assist character because its so shit to just get pushblocked out and potentially whiff trying to play him like a true safe pressure character like Dante. Theres ways around this but bleh, I know it would make him really strong and probably the best point character in the game hands down but I really feel like it would encourage people to play him more technically.
As for nerfs, I dont know what you could even do to justify giving him whiff cancel normals. I think you’d have to nerf Devil Trigger a lot, remove the speed bonus, tone down his air-dash range and speed, and how low you can do it to the ground. I’d like to see the anti-air capabilities of his normals reduced a little bit. I think his c.L should take 1 frame longer to come out.
Aside from that, i’m not sure how you could change Spiral Swords without ruining it and also being able to justify giving Vergil whiff cancel normals.
But yeah, thats all i’d really like to see.
whiff cancel normals with that type of crazy range and priority? LOL maybe if they toned down the hitbox of his normals IMMENSELY.
seriously, I don’t even know why people are calling for severe nerfs with this character. The ONLY few derps that this character is the fact that he’s ridiculous and SAFE in x-factor and helmbreaker into S is a ‘pseudo-chain’. I’m on the fence about round trip glitch since noone has really exploited it yet efficiently.
this character is heavily meter dependent and his go to mix-ups are left-right involving teleport -> assist or empty rapid slashes. seriously, people should be straight on blockstring -> rapid slash now. if umvc3 was left alone the way it is now for a couple more years, i’m pretty sure the threat of vergil would dilute, especially when the number of marvel scrubs thinning out. i’m not saying vergil is bad or anything; he certainly is ridiculously top-tier but… the fact that wolverine has guaranteed guardbreaks, instant overheads into fuzzy set ups is more scary to me than vergil (biased opinion of course 
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^ I think this post says it all. Obviously some of his hitboxes need to be fixed but other than that …just learn to block. Setup shit in training mode if you have to. Fgs are dumbed down enough as is these days…try playing guilty gear with good players and get back to me on impossible to block setups. Marvel fuzzy has nothing on that shit.
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My opinions, feel free to disagree:
- Judgement Cut Air OK (stolen from Chrisis, but I like the idea of Vergil having SOME aerial presence)
~ Blistering Swords is the new default sword formation. Spiral Swords takes its place as a QCB+S extension. Removes Vergil’s ability to completely control neutral while swords are up even off of DHC, removes his ability to get easy touch of death and be a “DHC glitch” for characters with weak damage output, prioritizes technical open ups using Blistering high-low-throw game. Will lead to more usage of DT in the neutral to protect Rapid Slashes, since Swords aren’t technically safe. This might even end up being a buff to his neutral, once people explore Blistering more thoroughly.
- Slightly increase startup on Round Trip to ensure that RT glitch attempts are more punishable unless appropriately covered with an assist.
- Prevent DT speed increase from stacking with XF as it does now. XF3+DT makes him more or less impossible to react to, punish, or really deal with at all.
Bro blistering swords being one bar is nuts. I agree that it’ll take away his stupid dhc, but it’s still a hall pass to go nuts, and it’ll make him an even dumber anchor with free 50/50 high lows.
They should just get rid of the round trip glitch completely, and I think spiral swords should go away if you happen to block anything. It would force you to make a smarter decision instead of QCB-M. And I don’t usually go through character forums, but I saw you made a post, and wanted to check it out <3
Rising Sun assist in DT has amror? On what frames? because I’ve tried testing it out extensively and got nothing back. Also, no thank you to the Blistering Swords being a one bar. I actually like my instant overheads.
I love when people who only play bad vergils use this argument. Get opened up free by judgement orb xx DT
Blistering swords is WAYY too strong to be one bar. Perhaps if they dissapeared when you get hit. As far as the argument on vergil DHC being a “dhc glitch”, there are several other DHC glitchlike characters (MODOK being most prominent in my mind… wouldn’t mind seeing more modok), so I don’t think these nerfs/buffs hold any merit. Also, I like the idea of trying to remove RT glitch, but by increasing RTs startup? That would probably kill a ton of Vergil’s combo potential.
This, this, this a thousand times over.
At any rate, I don’t think Vergil needs nerfs as much as the rest of the cast could use a few buffs. It’s going to be very difficult to nerf this character without ruining him completely, but I think removing the hitbox on the rear side of helmbreaker would be a strong start.
mehhhhhh deleted
This is why I dont post changes at 6AM. For whatever reason I was convinced it did, but I’m wrong. Scrap that. If anything, you’d get to do instant overheads more often. You’d just have to have a lockdown assist, or make them block something on the ground first. Yes, you can pushblock him off of you then, but that opens up anti-AG stuff too.
When I said that Blistering would take Spiral Swords place as the default Sword formation, this also means that as a level 1 super, it would go away on hit. Considering that he’s not actively protected by the Swords like Spiral Swords, the player would need to use more prudence in activation, since the recovery of the super does leave you open. This also means the 2 bar Spiral Swords would not disappear on hit, so you’d have to bear with it for the duration of Swords, or hit him in his dome and make him block until swords expires, a risky proposition.
Something else to consider without a 1 bar Spiral Swords: If you are already in DT, it wouild likely not be possible to get a full combo off of Rapid Slash any more without XF. I think this is ok, since DT Vergil has such potent space control options.
Forums are being lame or I would quote you, but I don’t think any character in this game should have DHC’s that open up damage on the level of Spiral Swords. I also want to get rid of Lightning Loop for Zero, Spencer unscale/scaling shenanigans etc.
Something needs to be done with RT glitch, but I dont know if thats removing it completely, or changing Round Trip’s properties. Any startup increase would probably only be on the level of 1 or 2 frames to allow for more consistent punishes on unsafe glitch attempts. I’m ok with it existing, as long as it needs to be covered with an assist. When Vergil isn’t sword looping you to death and/or controlling the neutral with Spiral Swords, I’m ok with him having the glitch, I just am not 100% sure how to fix it without hurting his combos. A small frame data adjustment would probably be alright for his combos, since mostly Round Trip is used after a ground bounce or wall bounce.
In all honesty I don’t see a way to balance this character, without resulting in complete removal of moves, or nerfing them to the point of being useless, but here’s what I think needs to change:
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Spiral Swords becomes an offensive-only super, kinda like Sugenmu, except it eats projectiles but doesn’t hit the oppenent unless they’re already in hitstun, this let’s him keep his (questionable) combo extensions, but removes his entire domination of the neutral when activated.
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Change animation of either Rapid Slash or Judgement Cut, stupid guessing game because of JCxxDT.
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Make either his jump S (GB) or his Stinger (WB) not work in Happy BD situations, I still think it’s crazy that all his BnB’s rock out on multiple characters (look at Firebrand for example, neither of his combo extenders work on 2 characters), he needs to cut short his combo’s if he hits an assist IMO, as a trade off for picking people off 3/4 screen away.
Oh, and lol @ health nerfs, could we stop suggesting that please? People still believe that it’s a legit way to balance characters…?
what’s the point of changing the Rapid Slash animation? If vergil is on point it crosses up, if he’s an assist you block related to point character, if he’s CCing with it, it’s a cross up.
The start up of Rapid Slash and Judgement Cut are too similar, making blocking his strings 100% guesses, since there is no way to visually tell what’s coming. It’s not about whether it crosses up or not.
Was about to say. A long time ago someone said the same thing on some other board and you are right you will still have 6 chances to go for the instant overhead you just have to fire a sword off, cant believe that escaped me.
I do agree with you on the Spiral Sword loop damage is too damn much, but i don’t think it should be removed entirely. Maybe increase the damage scaling of his specials, decrease meter build, or make the loops just harder to perform in general. I don’t really play Zero so i don’t know how i would change him, but my initial suggestion would be to do something similar to what I suggest for Vergil.
The round trip charging is really weird. I have performed combos where i have a round trip charged holding L, go into stinger and let go of L for a split second and press it again to do a rising sun and still have the charge. I thought it had something to do with his inability to roman cancel, but you can do it in devil trigger so that clearly not the case. Don’t quote me on this, but i think there is like a 5-7 frame opening in which someone can attack with unsafe round trip glitches using stinger, so I can definitely see an adjustment being there. Honestly, if they got rid of it i wouldn’t miss it.
To be honest, if Capcom does patch this game, they might take out the round trip glitch by accident. I’m not 100% sure, but I think the glitch has something to do with the same glitch usage as the TAC infinites: the landing and jumping & the release and hold of roundtrip both happen right at the hitstop of a move, but the game doesn’t register either of them happening.
But anyway, as for nerfs:
- Make helm breaker non-teleport cancel-able. I won’t go as far to make Helm Breaker unsafe, but since this guy can already chain into S, at least make it so a helm breaker doesn’t turn into a mixup.
- Take away his L teleport. A 3 directional teleport is just too much. With Strider/Mag assist, its literally a guessing game every time a character lands. His H-teleport can still be useful if the opponent is constantly in motion around the screen, and Vergil needs something that can fight flight characters.
- Reduce the projectile points (or whatever) of Spiral Swords or Increase startup. Being able to just straight up dash through Legion/Hyper Photon Array/Spell of Vishanti is a bit too much. As for startup, I imagine it could be a little slower than Storm’s hail storm super, or that a super than could punish it would have enough time to respond to it if done without a blockstring.
Dunno how I feel about that; if anything, it would probably end up like Dorm’s air dark hole, which is pretty useless, but if it still causes a soft knockdown, then maybe Vergil can finally have some TAC combos.
Three of the bigger nerfs he needs are both system changes tbh.
-XF + install super bonuses not stacking
-a trim on his hitboxes
- toning down of the assist that make teleport + assist so abusable IE Vajra, Disrupter and Triple Arrow
then there is
-remove the teleport macro on helm breaker (this makes it so you actually have to confirm if helm breaker is blocked or hits instead of just mashing it + assist for a mixup)
-height restriction for helm breaker (apex of normal jump height seems fair)
after that it gets pretty hazy cause obviously spiral swords needs a small nerf but you dont wanna nerf it to the point where it is useless.
I’m unsure of if they should get rid of the RT glitch cause I’ve experimented with it for a while and while its pretty damn good I think its slightly overrated. I honestly think it should stay just because it adds another dimension to the character.
-swords should scale harder (anywhere from like a 5%-8% damage reduction should be fine) so he doesn’t do so much damage but I’m actually against nerfing the hitstun of his other combo tools (round trip, cr.H and judgement) mostly because that would pretty drastically reduce his meter build. you want him to be a good battery since hes so reliant on meter
Contrary to popular belief it is very possible to block rapid slash consistantly on reaction if he is in Devil Trigger, or XF1, or even XF2. Now if hes in both XF and DT thats when it is impossible to react to from most ranges. Although you can still plink pushblock with :H: to avoid most Rapid Slash mixups during a blockstring. Which no one is doing for some reason lol.
buffs
-make his wall jump better like X-23’s
-better taunt
-fix his dmc3 lines (“now I’m a little motivated” > “now I’m motivated” and the change in his tone he had when he said “you’re going down” was dope and should be brought back 
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really…just more start up on swords +1 or 2 frames or make it a lvl 2 with a buff to time.
Nerf xfactor lvl 3 speed and damage
I really doubt that’d make Judgement Cut air-okay since he doesn’t have anything like that in DMC3.