Vega General Discussion 2013-2015 and on!

[Niah]

well, i guess counter poking is my way of beating the ken players at my local scene, haha. those f+mk is annoying as hell

[Vegaman]

Is it we that need to learn how to read or its you that need to learn how to type? My dog can communicate better than you. Geez.

Oni’s fLK can get crumpled, our stLK can’t. I can’t express how big this is.
We can confirm into more than 220 of dmg. Oni can’t.
It does shift our hurtbox forward a little, but if you are afraid of getting hit by a move that was stuck out there you can either use crLP (which is even faster and can combo into 220+ dmg as well), or you can learn how to whiff punish. You know… its been 5 years, its about time already.

You have better tools. Learn how to use it. Know your normals. And stop envying a poke that Oni has ffs.

One more thing. Be more polite. You can’t be a complete douche and don’t know shit at the same time.

you can only confirm with certain characters.

it can be crumpled as well but its harder.

st.lk is 4 frames ala cr.lp and your tellibg I don’t know? lol

we can go all day if you want.

the whole point was that this poke shifts him in such a way that it makes it a superb poke. this is a poke, thays all it is, vs cr.lp or st.lk are pressure pokes.

which is why its a better poke.

the only flaw thia poke has is that it can be focus dashed, like cr.mp you know??

but hey selectevly reading part of the posts, and then harping on apelling errors is typical behavior of scrub tier dumbasses like you who still bitch about lack of AA.

this is a better poke when you apply the most honest and pure definition of a poke. its something that forcea a reaction because its relatively safe and controls a lot of space.

cr.lp and st.lk only contr the space in front and don’t take up much vertical space. vs thia thing which does and is evident by it atuffing kens cr.mk multiple times.

and don’t tell me what can and can’t be used. I’m the one who insited on and got into many stupid arguments with other board members regarding the use of other normals when only cr.mp was used.

I don’t need a pleb who doesn’t know the differences between a poke like oni’s and a poke like st.lk telling me or teying to educate me with information that me and many many other veteran players that all worked hard to advance this charcter from ahit tier to competitve, because they aren’t even in the same class of pokes. there’s litarraly a library of knowledge on this board that breaks down each and every normal and its intended uaes wits secondary applications.

but of course you knew that right? cr.mp like st.mk, like cr.mk like the old cosmic heel where all pokes that forced a reaction. their flaw was that it moves the hurtbox forward, which natters so much when playing somebody who actually understands footsies. that small shift can be abused by a smart player and he can just throw a move that lingers. effectively limiting your options at that given time putting you on the defensive, the worst position any charcter can be in this game. this one move doesn’t, and is why I posted the video.

secondly it doeant matter if it can be focus dashed or crumpled. all pure pokes are designed to loae to focus attacking.

in fact in the early days there was threads dedicated to overcomimg this because it was such a huge weakness, and why running away was the morw popular playstyle.

so don’t come at me as I’d you know and then refeer moves to me when they don’t belong in the conversation. this wasn’t about pressure pike tools. it was about true pokes that forced a reaction that favored you. because have any of you ever seen a fo rced reaction by using either of those two other than os throw???

I thought so.

fyi, terrible speeling is due to typing thia on phone. reffer to older posts, every body got shitted on, everybody. get over it

Pedo… talk to text man. It works wonders.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen haz bitch about AA. I have though… and its because the opponent has zero reason to even try to play footsies with Vega. Just jump over. The risk of getting AAd vs the reward of guessing jump over Vega’s cMP or missed/beaten out AA attempt or just the pure potential space gain from Vega giving up space to maintain mid range is enough to warrant trying over and over. Let alone the fact Vega beats the majority of the cast on footsies. I want a low risk AA (cHP) so I can force the opponent into my ground game.

Stuffing pokes like kens cMK isn’t Vega’s forte. Yeah its strong but Vega excells in frame traps to deal with those. Besides, I’d much rather have CH to go over low pokes than sLK, cLP, or even Oni’s even though it moves the hurt box forward. Not many characters have long or mid range pokes that have lots of active frames, and as Haz said… the ones that do can be crumpled

Edit
Although I did stick in a 5 frame cMK on my USF4 request post

[Niah]

speaking of frame traps, how do you guys go about people using long normals to crouch tech? i use CH to frame trap, but against people like ken (cr.mk), vega, (cr.mp) and fei (cr.mp), it just doesn’t work. i had to rely on st.lk to frame trap, but even if i did successfully frame trap them, i can’t really do much damage other than just 2-3 hits of medium attacks. my only go to frame trap is st.lk, wait a bit, cr.lp, cr.mp, ex fba. do you all use this or is it just me?

[Haztlan]

Focus. Just safe jump start a focus and then win the round.

stLK crLP crMP xx EX FBA is a good combo, though.
Also, crMK crLP crMP xx EX FBA is amazing. But there are a few characters that these do not work. Against them just play with crLP until you see a counter hit pop off.

[pedoviejo]

You don’t deserve an answer explaining why every line of what you wrote is wrong. You are just too full of yourself to start a discussion.
Also, I won’t try to read what seems to be typed by Miek Russ anymore. Get your shit together man, either take your time to type properly on a cellphone or wait until you get into a computer.

All you deserve is this :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0

EDIT: You know what? Screw ya.
I have some free time left, lets go.

“you can only confirm with certain characters.”

1. Actually, you can NOT confirm with certain characters, which makes 10% of the cast. Big deal indeed.

"it can be crumpled as well but its harder."
2. No, it can’t. Just a point blank Focus from Blanka can do that. Nothing else in the entire world.

"st.lk is 4 frames ala cr.lp and your tellibg I don’t know? lol"
3. I have no idea what that meant. Anyway. Claw’s stLK is 5f of startup and his crLP is 4f. Oni’s stLK is 4f and fLK is 5f.

"the only flaw thia poke has is that it can be focus dashed, like cr.mp you know??"
4. I can focus dash a Boxer’s crLP. But its a stupid idea. Same thing against Oni’s fLK. You will be negative if you do that.

"but hey selectevly reading part of the posts, and then harping on apelling errors is typical behavior of scrub tier dumbasses like you who still bitch about lack of AA."
5. I bitched about lack of AA? Funny. I only remember saying that you could bitch about lack of AA and it would be fair. But anyway, Vega’s AA sucks really bad.

"this is a better poke when you apply the most honest and pure definition of a poke. its something that forcea a reaction because its relatively safe and controls a lot of space."
6. True, force a reaction… in this case it forces Oni to block, as he is in an awesome -2 disavantage.

"cr.lp and st.lk only contr the space in front and don’t take up much vertical space. vs thia thing which does and is evident by it atuffing kens cr.mk multiple times."
Vertical space?

"I don’t need a pleb who doesn’t know the differences between a poke like oni’s and a poke like st.lk telling me or teying to educate me with information that me and many many other veteran players that all worked hard to advance this charcter from shit tier to competitve"
lol you WHAT? You did WHAT?
You really think that? Damn it.

---

Meanwhile, let me finishthis scrubby table here. While looking for more useless stuffs hereand here, because, you know, this is how scrubs act.

lol at your shit tier billy madison insult…please up your game there as well.

1. It still exists for those characters, and then for the remaining ones, you have to be mid range and cannot be at absolute max distance. The issue here wasn’t damage, it was how pokes works. whatever the fuck you can link it to or what you can do with respect to damage, does not matter at all. because I was talking about pokes and their function. Poking an opponent to force a reaction.

2. It can, because it has happened to me, it’s just harder and less practical. But it’s there which is the point. and even if I opt to block in the chance that it does happen, the opponent is at an advantage for guessing right, let go, or dash back, or some characthers can simply dash forward and be in my face.

3. Ill give you that, you got me on frame data. As if that is relavant in a discussion about hurt/hit boxes.

4. Because we are clearly only talking in a vaccum about focus dashing, and this vaccum is exclusive to what Vega can and can’t do with respect to focus dashing. I don’t know why you used balrog, seeing as to how he is such an extreme, but I really don’t give a shit. In that video, the Ken wasn’t at a disadvantage, Vega will be, others don’t have such a shitty ~21+ frame dash forward. He did it multiple times, and it’s a half assed answer to that move, but it’s an answer none the less. However, Vega would be at an even bigger disadvantage because st.mk and cr.mp all have long recovery frames.

5. Vega’s air game is enough if you actually know how and what controls what space. In fast paced games, players use normals more than specials. Get over it, if fools in KoF13 are AA with normals in a much faster, mix up heavy game, nobody on this board has the right to bitch about AA. What you people have and always wanted was a reversal for wake up. that =/= an AA.

6. and Vega is -4 on cr.mp, it shifts hit box forward making it a terrible poke against moves that linger mid range, leaves you way open (good players bait this and jump on you for free), free to smart focus dashing, is controls very little vertical space, can and will be stuffed by the right lows.

Oni -2, shifts hurt box back and does not extend forward or vertically so it can’t be hit by lows, is safe and hit box extends way past actual hurt box and character model, is quick and harder to bait and punish, controls more vertical space, can still be punished, but not to the extent cr.mp can.

It doesn’t get any simpler than that. If you still cannot understand what makes Oni’s kick so good, and why it functions as a pure poke better than anything Vega has, then you are stupid.

This isn’t about the move as a whole and what it can do. st.lk is a more practical useful poke from a holistic point of view. But this isn’t about the whole, when you examine that move as poke, it really isn’t that great of a poke compared to what pokes are. and why that move is irrevelant when it’s not even in the same class of moves.

@Vegaman, that was when Cosmic Heel was an actual good move. also the fact that the hit box was akward, and could miss always made it a terrible move for punishing baited lows. It was simply to range and character dependent (against Ryu, you had to be long to mid range and had to be half way done with start up frame in order to stuff his cr.mk), vs Oni’s which isn’t any of that. It’s shoot and forget type poke that would benefit Vega.

[TriasNT]

The thing about people pressing long ranged-buttons to tech is that you can’t walk grab them. Focusing on block (instead of just grabbing) is indeed very effective, unless they mash armor break reversals, just like Haztlan says.

CH only works against whiffs, or against crouching kicks. If you can’t pass though those, you just have to rely on regular frame-traps (cMK cMP, cMK LP-RCF, cMK sMK, cMK cHP vs standing, cMK sHP, sLK sHK or sLK sLK cMP). If you want damage, I would specially think about enders such as cMK sHP/cHP or sLK sHK, but they have limitations against crouching opponents (against whom cMK LP-RCF works very well).

The thing about frame-traps is that the bigger the gap, the more effective but also risky it gets. Frame-traps with gaps bigger than 3 frames in fact rely on whiff (for example ryu’s cLK cMK EX-Hado has a 6 frames gap, and works wonders because ducking under punches and starting after most lights kicks active frames have worn out. But it would be counterhit by a cosmic heel. cMK sMK works well at max range, 'cause at that range almost any adverse attack would whiff… except slides. So there isn’t frame-traps that are at the same time 100% effective and 0% risky, you have to choose a compromise; or adapt it to the MU/opponent. =)

It goes without saying, that instead of just frame-trapping, you could also just walk back, wait for the whiff, and punish. =)

[Haztlan]

1. It still exists for those characters, and then for the remaining ones, you have to be mid range and cannot be at absolute max distance. The issue here wasn’t damage, it was how pokes works. whatever the fuck you can link it to or what you can do with respect to damage, does not matter at all. because I was talking about pokes and their function. Poking an opponent to force a reaction.

2. It can, because it has happened to me, it’s just harder and less practical. But it’s there which is the point. and even if I opt to block in the chance that it does happen, the opponent is at an advantage for guessing right, let go, or dash back, or some characthers can simply dash forward and be in my face.

3. Ill give you that, you got me on frame data. As if that is relavant in a discussion about hurt/hit boxes.

4. Because we are clearly only talking in a vaccum about focus dashing, and this vaccum is exclusive to what Vega can and can’t do with respect to focus dashing. I don’t know why you used balrog, seeing as to how he is such an extreme, but I really don’t give a shit. In that video, the Ken wasn’t at a disadvantage, Vega will be, others don’t have such a shitty ~21+ frame dash forward. He did it multiple times, and it’s a half assed answer to that move, but it’s an answer none the less. However, Vega would be at an even bigger disadvantage because st.mk and cr.mp all have long recovery frames.

5. Vega’s air game is enough if you actually know how and what controls what space. In fast paced games, players use normals more than specials. Get over it, if fools in KoF13 are AA with normals in a much faster, mix up heavy game, nobody on this board has the right to bitch about AA. What you people have and always wanted was a reversal for wake up. that =/= an AA.

6. and Vega is -4 on cr.mp, it shifts hit box forward making it a terrible poke against moves that linger mid range, leaves you way open (good players bait this and jump on you for free), free to smart focus dashing, is controls very little vertical space, can and will be stuffed by the right lows.

Oni -2, shifts hurt box back and does not extend forward or vertically so it can’t be hit by lows, is safe and hit box extends way past actual hurt box and character model, is quick and harder to bait and punish, controls more vertical space, can still be punished, but not to the extent cr.mp can.

It doesn’t get any simpler than that. If you still cannot understand what makes Oni’s kick so good, and why it functions as a pure poke better than anything Vega has, then you are stupid.

This isn’t about the move as a whole and what it can do. st.lk is a more practical useful poke from a holistic point of view. But this isn’t about the whole, when you examine that move as poke, it really isn’t that great of a poke compared to what pokes are. and why that move is irrevelant when it’s not even in the same class of moves.

@Vegaman, that was when Cosmic Heel was an actual good move. also the fact that the hit box was akward, and could miss always made it a terrible move for punishing baited lows. It was simply to range and character dependent (against Ryu, you had to be long to mid range and had to be half way done with start up frame in order to stuff his cr.mk), vs Oni’s which isn’t any of that. It’s shoot and forget type poke that would benefit Vega.

First of all thank you for typing like an human being.
Now:
1,2,3,4,5,6 - Stop saying that. All pokes force a reaction. Even block is a reaction. Look: Makoto’s stMP, Sakura’s crMK, E. Ryu’s crMP and a lot of other moves are in the category of “counter pokes” moves. They have a good hitbox and a good amount of active frames, in this way they can stick their move out there and get the hurtbox of your incoming move, then unleash the special that was buffered. That is how footsies is played with Vega. You have to bait them into throwing those moves out there and then punish their whiff. It has been like this for years. Vega is not, and shouldn’t, getting a move with good priority. He has EVERYTHING he needs to play in the ground. He doesn’t need anything else there. So no, Vega’s moves should not, by any means, act like that. stLK and crLP are the closest we can get of a counter poke. They are not as good as others pokes in that area, but they are better in every other aspect. Play by your strenghts and don’t ask for something that was never designed for your character.

Also, stLK can’t be crumpled ffs. Stop arguing with that. Aside from the situation that I have told you, it can’t happen and it didn’t happen to you. Because its impossible, the end.
And stLK crLP crMP FBA works on every character that makes a focus dash attempt after the stLK.

[Vegaman]

1. It still exists for those characters, and then for the remaining ones, you have to be mid range and cannot be at absolute max distance. The issue here wasn’t damage, it was how pokes works. whatever the fuck you can link it to or what you can do with respect to damage, does not matter at all. because I was talking about pokes and their function. Poking an opponent to force a reaction.

2. It can, because it has happened to me, it’s just harder and less practical. But it’s there which is the point. and even if I opt to block in the chance that it does happen, the opponent is at an advantage for guessing right, let go, or dash back, or some characthers can simply dash forward and be in my face.

3. Ill give you that, you got me on frame data. As if that is relavant in a discussion about hurt/hit boxes.

4. Because we are clearly only talking in a vaccum about focus dashing, and this vaccum is exclusive to what Vega can and can’t do with respect to focus dashing. I don’t know why you used balrog, seeing as to how he is such an extreme, but I really don’t give a shit. In that video, the Ken wasn’t at a disadvantage, Vega will be, others don’t have such a shitty ~21+ frame dash forward. He did it multiple times, and it’s a half assed answer to that move, but it’s an answer none the less. However, Vega would be at an even bigger disadvantage because st.mk and cr.mp all have long recovery frames.

5. Vega’s air game is enough if you actually know how and what controls what space. In fast paced games, players use normals more than specials. Get over it, if fools in KoF13 are AA with normals in a much faster, mix up heavy game, nobody on this board has the right to bitch about AA. What you people have and always wanted was a reversal for wake up. that =/= an AA.

6. and Vega is -4 on cr.mp, it shifts hit box forward making it a terrible poke against moves that linger mid range, leaves you way open (good players bait this and jump on you for free), free to smart focus dashing, is controls very little vertical space, can and will be stuffed by the right lows.

Oni -2, shifts hurt box back and does not extend forward or vertically so it can’t be hit by lows, is safe and hit box extends way past actual hurt box and character model, is quick and harder to bait and punish, controls more vertical space, can still be punished, but not to the extent cr.mp can.

It doesn’t get any simpler than that. If you still cannot understand what makes Oni’s kick so good, and why it functions as a pure poke better than anything Vega has, then you are stupid.

This isn’t about the move as a whole and what it can do. st.lk is a more practical useful poke from a holistic point of view. But this isn’t about the whole, when you examine that move as poke, it really isn’t that great of a poke compared to what pokes are. and why that move is irrevelant when it’s not even in the same class of moves.

@Vegaman, that was when Cosmic Heel was an actual good move. also the fact that the hit box was akward, and could miss always made it a terrible move for punishing baited lows. It was simply to range and character dependent (against Ryu, you had to be long to mid range and had to be half way done with start up frame in order to stuff his cr.mk), vs Oni’s which isn’t any of that. It’s shoot and forget type poke that would benefit Vega.

First of all thank you for typing like an human being.
Now:
1,2,3,4,5,6 - Stop saying that. All pokes force a reaction. Even block is a reaction. Look: Makoto’s stMP, Sakura’s crMK, E. Ryu’s crMP and a lot of other moves are in the category of “counter pokes” moves. They have a good hitbox and a good amount of active frames, in this way they can stick their move out there and get the hurtbox of your incoming move, then unleash the special that was buffered. That is how footsies is played with Vega. You have to bait them into throwing those moves out there and then punish their whiff. It has been like this for years. Vega is not, and shouldn’t, getting a move with good priority. He has EVERYTHING he needs to play in the ground. He doesn’t need anything else there. So no, Vega’s moves should not, by any means, act like that. stLK and crLP are the closest we can get of a counter poke. They are not as good as others pokes in that area, but they are better in every other aspect. Play by your strenghts and don’t ask for something that was never designed for your character.

Also, stLK can’t be crumpled ffs. Stop arguing with that. Aside from the situation that I have told you, it can’t happen and it didn’t happen to you. Because its impossible, the end.
And stLK crLP crMP FBA works on every character that makes a focus dash attempt after the stLK.

Its that talk to text

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As for oni’s normal, I’m not sure if you were meaning for Vega to gain a move like that or Oni lose that move, but I really don’t think Vega needs it or Oni needs to lose it. Besides, the only move that would really work on is sMK and I’m not sure I’d want a +1, 2, or 3 sMK with a reduced hurtbox at the cost of something else. Particularly when at the range you’d use it puts you out of combo and Kara throw range.

Also Vega’s AA game is sufficient… but I don’t like the risk vs reward Vega has to take by jumping to AA on almost every attempt.

[Vegaman]

speaking of frame traps, how do you guys go about people using long normals to crouch tech? i use CH to frame trap, but against people like ken (cr.mk), vega, (cr.mp) and fei (cr.mp), it just doesn’t work. i had to rely on st.lk to frame trap, but even if i did successfully frame trap them, i can’t really do much damage other than just 2-3 hits of medium attacks. my only go to frame trap is st.lk, wait a bit, cr.lp, cr.mp, ex fba. do you all use this or is it just me?

Niah proper frame trapping will make opponent’s poke range irrelevant. the purpose of frame trapping is to induce a counter hit so you want to be hitting the opponent on startup. proper frame traps are set up at least +2 for the move you’re attempting to fish for a counter poke. if the opponents active frames are coming out then you’re not frame trapping properly. the main mileage you’re going to get from frame traps is catching people crouch teching

[Niah]

damn, i forgot i could just focus crumple those crouch techs. nice. oh and trais, walk back and make them whiff isn’t an option for long normal techs! especially ken’s cr.mk! that move is so godlike…

just realise ken’s cr.mk is -4 on block, gah…

[pedoviejo]

1. It still exists for those characters, and then for the remaining ones, you have to be mid range and cannot be at absolute max distance. The issue here wasn’t damage, it was how pokes works. whatever the fuck you can link it to or what you can do with respect to damage, does not matter at all. because I was talking about pokes and their function. Poking an opponent to force a reaction.

2. It can, because it has happened to me, it’s just harder and less practical. But it’s there which is the point. and even if I opt to block in the chance that it does happen, the opponent is at an advantage for guessing right, let go, or dash back, or some characthers can simply dash forward and be in my face.

3. Ill give you that, you got me on frame data. As if that is relavant in a discussion about hurt/hit boxes.

4. Because we are clearly only talking in a vaccum about focus dashing, and this vaccum is exclusive to what Vega can and can’t do with respect to focus dashing. I don’t know why you used balrog, seeing as to how he is such an extreme, but I really don’t give a shit. In that video, the Ken wasn’t at a disadvantage, Vega will be, others don’t have such a shitty ~21+ frame dash forward. He did it multiple times, and it’s a half assed answer to that move, but it’s an answer none the less. However, Vega would be at an even bigger disadvantage because st.mk and cr.mp all have long recovery frames.

5. Vega’s air game is enough if you actually know how and what controls what space. In fast paced games, players use normals more than specials. Get over it, if fools in KoF13 are AA with normals in a much faster, mix up heavy game, nobody on this board has the right to bitch about AA. What you people have and always wanted was a reversal for wake up. that =/= an AA.

6. and Vega is -4 on cr.mp, it shifts hit box forward making it a terrible poke against moves that linger mid range, leaves you way open (good players bait this and jump on you for free), free to smart focus dashing, is controls very little vertical space, can and will be stuffed by the right lows.

Oni -2, shifts hurt box back and does not extend forward or vertically so it can’t be hit by lows, is safe and hit box extends way past actual hurt box and character model, is quick and harder to bait and punish, controls more vertical space, can still be punished, but not to the extent cr.mp can.

It doesn’t get any simpler than that. If you still cannot understand what makes Oni’s kick so good, and why it functions as a pure poke better than anything Vega has, then you are stupid.

This isn’t about the move as a whole and what it can do. st.lk is a more practical useful poke from a holistic point of view. But this isn’t about the whole, when you examine that move as poke, it really isn’t that great of a poke compared to what pokes are. and why that move is irrevelant when it’s not even in the same class of moves.

@Vegaman, that was when Cosmic Heel was an actual good move. also the fact that the hit box was akward, and could miss always made it a terrible move for punishing baited lows. It was simply to range and character dependent (against Ryu, you had to be long to mid range and had to be half way done with start up frame in order to stuff his cr.mk), vs Oni’s which isn’t any of that. It’s shoot and forget type poke that would benefit Vega.

First of all thank you for typing like an human being.
Now:
1,2,3,4,5,6 - Stop saying that. All pokes force a reaction. Even block is a reaction. Look: Makoto’s stMP, Sakura’s crMK, E. Ryu’s crMP and a lot of other moves are in the category of “counter pokes” moves. They have a good hitbox and a good amount of active frames, in this way they can stick their move out there and get the hurtbox of your incoming move, then unleash the special that was buffered. That is how footsies is played with Vega. You have to bait them into throwing those moves out there and then punish their whiff. It has been like this for years. Vega is not, and shouldn’t, getting a move with good priority. He has EVERYTHING he needs to play in the ground. He doesn’t need anything else there. So no, Vega’s moves should not, by any means, act like that. stLK and crLP are the closest we can get of a counter poke. They are not as good as others pokes in that area, but they are better in every other aspect. Play by your strenghts and don’t ask for something that was never designed for your character.

Also, stLK can’t be crumpled ffs. Stop arguing with that. Aside from the situation that I have told you, it can’t happen and it didn’t happen to you. Because its impossible, the end.
And stLK crLP crMP FBA works on every character that makes a focus dash attempt after the stLK.

no, not all pokes force a reaction. In SF4 blocking is an advantagous position when you aren’t fighting mix up heavy characters, this is SF4 vega, not SF2. Vega forcing an oppenent to block isn’t much of a big deal, because there is no threat ever from Vega when you are blocking. He isn’t Abel, Zangief, Viper, etc. \

And don’t tell me to whiff punish, really. I know how to play the fucking character, I was one of the few that insisted on that shit when everybody was playing run away Vega. what happens when the opponent doesn’t throw any normals and just hovers outside. Have you ever seen Justin Wong use Rufus. That character has absolutely no fucking footsie game, yet Wong wins the footsie game because he knows that by not pushing a button he forces the opponent into a situation where he has to attack other wise he gets in. When any character can force you to play the game on his terms, even if he is at a disadvantage, you are at a bigger risk of losing more in the event that you fail, even if you are in the more advantageous position. All of Vega’s bad match ups, follow this philosophy, all of them.

In order to control the space in front of him, the opponent has to throw normals out there, and that exposes and locks the opponent in place for 20-30 frames. A very long time, especially for a character like Vega with no moves with invulnerability. In theory he shouldn’t win, why does he beat characters like Adon, Rose, etc. All heavy and strong footsie game characters? It shouldn’t happen if footsies where as strong as people think they are. When opponents that know the match up refuse to play the footsie game, and are capable of waiting 40 seconds outside just to get in, is when Vega loses the match up.

A move like Oni eliminates this issue because poking against a smart opponent is now safer (due to shifting of hurtbox away, and having a quicker recovery than the standard pokes that you would use in that situation) and he has to risk with FADC a lot more often exposing him to being punished by kara throw, it makes the footsie game stronger in a footsie weak game, and makes him better at the only thing this character is actually good at which is controlling horizontal space, he needs to control vertical space as well. This stops a lot of issue he has, especially against opponents that dive kick or jump in any direction. Being able to control both vertical space and horizontal space while on the floor is important for any footsie oriented character. It’s why Zangief would have the best footsie game in the entire game if he could walk faster, he has the best pokeeeees.

ANd how is not having a move that is a poke not Vega’s character design??? WTF, seriously, and you wonder why I throw insults, stupid shit like that. The fact is, Vega needs a move like this, every other footsie character has this. Rose, Guile, Sagat, Ryu, etc. Because they at least have a better mix up game and or can chip way easier gaining the lead like that. Vega has neither, the least he can have is have a move like Oni, preferably his st.mk. st.mp is there but doesn’t have the range, nor vertical space control it needs to be effective.

Vega’s move’s should not move him forward and control very little vertical space, it’s a complaint I’ve had since day one, and an issue i’ve always been bothered by becasue it weakens his footsie game in a footsie weak game.

Don’t tell me how to use this character, seriously “bro”. RAther than studying your frame data, you should have studied up on how the engine works, and how and why your normals work the way they do.

[pedoviejo]

1. It still exists for those characters, and then for the remaining ones, you have to be mid range and cannot be at absolute max distance. The issue here wasn’t damage, it was how pokes works. whatever the fuck you can link it to or what you can do with respect to damage, does not matter at all. because I was talking about pokes and their function. Poking an opponent to force a reaction.

2. It can, because it has happened to me, it’s just harder and less practical. But it’s there which is the point. and even if I opt to block in the chance that it does happen, the opponent is at an advantage for guessing right, let go, or dash back, or some characthers can simply dash forward and be in my face.

3. Ill give you that, you got me on frame data. As if that is relavant in a discussion about hurt/hit boxes.

4. Because we are clearly only talking in a vaccum about focus dashing, and this vaccum is exclusive to what Vega can and can’t do with respect to focus dashing. I don’t know why you used balrog, seeing as to how he is such an extreme, but I really don’t give a shit. In that video, the Ken wasn’t at a disadvantage, Vega will be, others don’t have such a shitty ~21+ frame dash forward. He did it multiple times, and it’s a half assed answer to that move, but it’s an answer none the less. However, Vega would be at an even bigger disadvantage because st.mk and cr.mp all have long recovery frames.

5. Vega’s air game is enough if you actually know how and what controls what space. In fast paced games, players use normals more than specials. Get over it, if fools in KoF13 are AA with normals in a much faster, mix up heavy game, nobody on this board has the right to bitch about AA. What you people have and always wanted was a reversal for wake up. that =/= an AA.

6. and Vega is -4 on cr.mp, it shifts hit box forward making it a terrible poke against moves that linger mid range, leaves you way open (good players bait this and jump on you for free), free to smart focus dashing, is controls very little vertical space, can and will be stuffed by the right lows.

Oni -2, shifts hurt box back and does not extend forward or vertically so it can’t be hit by lows, is safe and hit box extends way past actual hurt box and character model, is quick and harder to bait and punish, controls more vertical space, can still be punished, but not to the extent cr.mp can.

It doesn’t get any simpler than that. If you still cannot understand what makes Oni’s kick so good, and why it functions as a pure poke better than anything Vega has, then you are stupid.

This isn’t about the move as a whole and what it can do. st.lk is a more practical useful poke from a holistic point of view. But this isn’t about the whole, when you examine that move as poke, it really isn’t that great of a poke compared to what pokes are. and why that move is irrevelant when it’s not even in the same class of moves.

@Vegaman, that was when Cosmic Heel was an actual good move. also the fact that the hit box was akward, and could miss always made it a terrible move for punishing baited lows. It was simply to range and character dependent (against Ryu, you had to be long to mid range and had to be half way done with start up frame in order to stuff his cr.mk), vs Oni’s which isn’t any of that. It’s shoot and forget type poke that would benefit Vega.

First of all thank you for typing like an human being.
Now:
1,2,3,4,5,6 - Stop saying that. All pokes force a reaction. Even block is a reaction. Look: Makoto’s stMP, Sakura’s crMK, E. Ryu’s crMP and a lot of other moves are in the category of “counter pokes” moves. They have a good hitbox and a good amount of active frames, in this way they can stick their move out there and get the hurtbox of your incoming move, then unleash the special that was buffered. That is how footsies is played with Vega. You have to bait them into throwing those moves out there and then punish their whiff. It has been like this for years. Vega is not, and shouldn’t, getting a move with good priority. He has EVERYTHING he needs to play in the ground. He doesn’t need anything else there. So no, Vega’s moves should not, by any means, act like that. stLK and crLP are the closest we can get of a counter poke. They are not as good as others pokes in that area, but they are better in every other aspect. Play by your strenghts and don’t ask for something that was never designed for your character.

Also, stLK can’t be crumpled ffs. Stop arguing with that. Aside from the situation that I have told you, it can’t happen and it didn’t happen to you. Because its impossible, the end.
And stLK crLP crMP FBA works on every character that makes a focus dash attempt after the stLK.

Its that talk to text

Off topic but also consider investing in this pedo:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B005ES6E6W/ref=redir_mdp_mobile?pc_redir=1

This thing is awesome for us phone users

As for oni’s normal, I’m not sure if you were meaning for Vega to gain a move like that or Oni lose that move, but I really don’t think Vega needs it or Oni needs to lose it. Besides, the only move that would really work on is sMK and I’m not sure I’d want a +1, 2, or 3 sMK with a reduced hurtbox at the cost of something else. Particularly when at the range you’d use it puts you out of combo and Kara throw range.

Also Vega’s AA game is sufficient… but I don’t like the risk vs reward Vega has to take by jumping to AA on almost every attempt.

117 dollars, so fools on the internet can take me serioulsy. fuck that bro, fuck that. but enticing and looks cool. I can finally type essay’s with ease for school

I want vega to gain a move like that, and I explained why. If you look at what Vega can do, and what artificial limiters are placed on him by the developers and game engine, you would see that gaining this, should be free. If the developers really want him to be such a ground heavy game, why give him so many fatal flaws?

Weak non existant mix up game, that is stopped by not pushing a button.
Weaker AA game that requires intensive knowledge and good read of what move he used or may have not used.
Weakerer control of vertical space and all good pokes shift hurtbox forward making his strong footsie game artificially weaker than it should be. Hence why cr.lp, cr.mp miss opponents that jump and are bearly of the floor, or those dive kicks rufus does.

1 and 2 can be ignored and not a big deal if 3 didn’t exist. even his fucking good points have flaws, WTF kind of design philosophy is this shit.

speaking of frame traps, how do you guys go about people using long normals to crouch tech? i use CH to frame trap, but against people like ken (cr.mk), vega, (cr.mp) and fei (cr.mp), it just doesn’t work. i had to rely on st.lk to frame trap, but even if i did successfully frame trap them, i can’t really do much damage other than just 2-3 hits of medium attacks. my only go to frame trap is st.lk, wait a bit, cr.lp, cr.mp, ex fba. do you all use this or is it just me?

Niah proper frame trapping will make opponent’s poke range irrelevant. the purpose of frame trapping is to induce a counter hit so you want to be hitting the opponent on startup. proper frame traps are set up at least +2 for the move you’re attempting to fish for a counter poke. if the opponents active frames are coming out then you’re not frame trapping properly. the main mileage you’re going to get from frame traps is catching people crouch teching

I still can’t believe oponents OS tech, or push buttons when Vega is in your face. ROFLCOPTER

[Haztlan]

I said a COUNTER POKE is not Vega’s desing. GOD DAMMIT.

You make up something that I said and then go on and type four paragraphs trying to explain why what you made up is wrong.
glhf
Meanwhile I’ll look on wikipedia to learn how the engine of this game works. Thanks for the tip.

[Vegaman]

1. It still exists for those characters, and then for the remaining ones, you have to be mid range and cannot be at absolute max distance. The issue here wasn’t damage, it was how pokes works. whatever the fuck you can link it to or what you can do with respect to damage, does not matter at all. because I was talking about pokes and their function. Poking an opponent to force a reaction.

2. It can, because it has happened to me, it’s just harder and less practical. But it’s there which is the point. and even if I opt to block in the chance that it does happen, the opponent is at an advantage for guessing right, let go, or dash back, or some characthers can simply dash forward and be in my face.

3. Ill give you that, you got me on frame data. As if that is relavant in a discussion about hurt/hit boxes.

4. Because we are clearly only talking in a vaccum about focus dashing, and this vaccum is exclusive to what Vega can and can’t do with respect to focus dashing. I don’t know why you used balrog, seeing as to how he is such an extreme, but I really don’t give a shit. In that video, the Ken wasn’t at a disadvantage, Vega will be, others don’t have such a shitty ~21+ frame dash forward. He did it multiple times, and it’s a half assed answer to that move, but it’s an answer none the less. However, Vega would be at an even bigger disadvantage because st.mk and cr.mp all have long recovery frames.

5. Vega’s air game is enough if you actually know how and what controls what space. In fast paced games, players use normals more than specials. Get over it, if fools in KoF13 are AA with normals in a much faster, mix up heavy game, nobody on this board has the right to bitch about AA. What you people have and always wanted was a reversal for wake up. that =/= an AA.

6. and Vega is -4 on cr.mp, it shifts hit box forward making it a terrible poke against moves that linger mid range, leaves you way open (good players bait this and jump on you for free), free to smart focus dashing, is controls very little vertical space, can and will be stuffed by the right lows.

Oni -2, shifts hurt box back and does not extend forward or vertically so it can’t be hit by lows, is safe and hit box extends way past actual hurt box and character model, is quick and harder to bait and punish, controls more vertical space, can still be punished, but not to the extent cr.mp can.

It doesn’t get any simpler than that. If you still cannot understand what makes Oni’s kick so good, and why it functions as a pure poke better than anything Vega has, then you are stupid.

This isn’t about the move as a whole and what it can do. st.lk is a more practical useful poke from a holistic point of view. But this isn’t about the whole, when you examine that move as poke, it really isn’t that great of a poke compared to what pokes are. and why that move is irrevelant when it’s not even in the same class of moves.

@Vegaman, that was when Cosmic Heel was an actual good move. also the fact that the hit box was akward, and could miss always made it a terrible move for punishing baited lows. It was simply to range and character dependent (against Ryu, you had to be long to mid range and had to be half way done with start up frame in order to stuff his cr.mk), vs Oni’s which isn’t any of that. It’s shoot and forget type poke that would benefit Vega.

First of all thank you for typing like an human being.
Now:
1,2,3,4,5,6 - Stop saying that. All pokes force a reaction. Even block is a reaction. Look: Makoto’s stMP, Sakura’s crMK, E. Ryu’s crMP and a lot of other moves are in the category of “counter pokes” moves. They have a good hitbox and a good amount of active frames, in this way they can stick their move out there and get the hurtbox of your incoming move, then unleash the special that was buffered. That is how footsies is played with Vega. You have to bait them into throwing those moves out there and then punish their whiff. It has been like this for years. Vega is not, and shouldn’t, getting a move with good priority. He has EVERYTHING he needs to play in the ground. He doesn’t need anything else there. So no, Vega’s moves should not, by any means, act like that. stLK and crLP are the closest we can get of a counter poke. They are not as good as others pokes in that area, but they are better in every other aspect. Play by your strenghts and don’t ask for something that was never designed for your character.

Also, stLK can’t be crumpled ffs. Stop arguing with that. Aside from the situation that I have told you, it can’t happen and it didn’t happen to you. Because its impossible, the end.
And stLK crLP crMP FBA works on every character that makes a focus dash attempt after the stLK.

Its that talk to text

Off topic but also consider investing in this pedo:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B005ES6E6W/ref=redir_mdp_mobile?pc_redir=1

This thing is awesome for us phone users

As for oni’s normal, I’m not sure if you were meaning for Vega to gain a move like that or Oni lose that move, but I really don’t think Vega needs it or Oni needs to lose it. Besides, the only move that would really work on is sMK and I’m not sure I’d want a +1, 2, or 3 sMK with a reduced hurtbox at the cost of something else. Particularly when at the range you’d use it puts you out of combo and Kara throw range.

Also Vega’s AA game is sufficient… but I don’t like the risk vs reward Vega has to take by jumping to AA on almost every attempt.

117 dollars, so fools on the internet can take me serioulsy. fuck that bro, fuck that. but enticing and looks cool. I can finally type essay’s with ease for school

I want vega to gain a move like that, and I explained why. If you look at what Vega can do, and what artificial limiters are placed on him by the developers and game engine, you would see that gaining this, should be free. If the developers really want him to be such a ground heavy game, why give him so many fatal flaws?

Weak non existant mix up game, that is stopped by not pushing a button.
Weaker AA game that requires intensive knowledge and good read of what move he used or may have not used.
Weakerer control of vertical space and all good pokes shift hurtbox forward making his strong footsie game artificially weaker than it should be. Hence why cr.lp, cr.mp miss opponents that jump and are bearly of the floor, or those dive kicks rufus does.

1 and 2 can be ignored and not a big deal if 3 didn’t exist. even his fucking good points have flaws, WTF kind of design philosophy is this shit.

speaking of frame traps, how do you guys go about people using long normals to crouch tech? i use CH to frame trap, but against people like ken (cr.mk), vega, (cr.mp) and fei (cr.mp), it just doesn’t work. i had to rely on st.lk to frame trap, but even if i did successfully frame trap them, i can’t really do much damage other than just 2-3 hits of medium attacks. my only go to frame trap is st.lk, wait a bit, cr.lp, cr.mp, ex fba. do you all use this or is it just me?

Niah proper frame trapping will make opponent’s poke range irrelevant. the purpose of frame trapping is to induce a counter hit so you want to be hitting the opponent on startup. proper frame traps are set up at least +2 for the move you’re attempting to fish for a counter poke. if the opponents active frames are coming out then you’re not frame trapping properly. the main mileage you’re going to get from frame traps is catching people crouch teching

I still can’t believe oponents OS tech, or push buttons when Vega is in your face. ROFLCOPTER

I got a ton of use from that keyboard for school. Homework, papers, programming … all done on my phone with it. Its awesome. The oonly drawback… you can’t type lazy. Only 1 finger down at a time.

Like I said though… the only move I can see having that property is sMK and adding frame advantage (to lessen recovery without changing animations) doesn’t really change his footsie game since Vega’s can’t do anything at that range anyway. Its a similar argument to the one I had with Jozhear regarding safe jumps and being at a frame avantage only without frame traps or Kara throws. Its still not going to force a reaction.

There’s a better way to force a reaction (IMO) and that’s to make PoM +4 on hit. Because at that range he CAN Kara throw, frame trap, buffer ST or ultra, block, or continue the combo forcing the opponent to react properly or risk being put into the same situation again. A move like Oni’s only ends up acting like a bad version of SSF4 CH unless you mean reverting CH to SSF4 properties. And that’s fine if so. That’s your personal preference. But for me, I’d rather move away from Kara throw being the center of his entire offense.

And yes opponents still mash crouch tech, wake up dp, full screen ultra, jump in unsafely, take huge risks with the life lead, walk themselves into the corner, etc…

[pedoviejo]

1. It still exists for those characters, and then for the remaining ones, you have to be mid range and cannot be at absolute max distance. The issue here wasn’t damage, it was how pokes works. whatever the fuck you can link it to or what you can do with respect to damage, does not matter at all. because I was talking about pokes and their function. Poking an opponent to force a reaction.

2. It can, because it has happened to me, it’s just harder and less practical. But it’s there which is the point. and even if I opt to block in the chance that it does happen, the opponent is at an advantage for guessing right, let go, or dash back, or some characthers can simply dash forward and be in my face.

3. Ill give you that, you got me on frame data. As if that is relavant in a discussion about hurt/hit boxes.

4. Because we are clearly only talking in a vaccum about focus dashing, and this vaccum is exclusive to what Vega can and can’t do with respect to focus dashing. I don’t know why you used balrog, seeing as to how he is such an extreme, but I really don’t give a shit. In that video, the Ken wasn’t at a disadvantage, Vega will be, others don’t have such a shitty ~21+ frame dash forward. He did it multiple times, and it’s a half assed answer to that move, but it’s an answer none the less. However, Vega would be at an even bigger disadvantage because st.mk and cr.mp all have long recovery frames.

5. Vega’s air game is enough if you actually know how and what controls what space. In fast paced games, players use normals more than specials. Get over it, if fools in KoF13 are AA with normals in a much faster, mix up heavy game, nobody on this board has the right to bitch about AA. What you people have and always wanted was a reversal for wake up. that =/= an AA.

6. and Vega is -4 on cr.mp, it shifts hit box forward making it a terrible poke against moves that linger mid range, leaves you way open (good players bait this and jump on you for free), free to smart focus dashing, is controls very little vertical space, can and will be stuffed by the right lows.

Oni -2, shifts hurt box back and does not extend forward or vertically so it can’t be hit by lows, is safe and hit box extends way past actual hurt box and character model, is quick and harder to bait and punish, controls more vertical space, can still be punished, but not to the extent cr.mp can.

It doesn’t get any simpler than that. If you still cannot understand what makes Oni’s kick so good, and why it functions as a pure poke better than anything Vega has, then you are stupid.

This isn’t about the move as a whole and what it can do. st.lk is a more practical useful poke from a holistic point of view. But this isn’t about the whole, when you examine that move as poke, it really isn’t that great of a poke compared to what pokes are. and why that move is irrevelant when it’s not even in the same class of moves.

@Vegaman, that was when Cosmic Heel was an actual good move. also the fact that the hit box was akward, and could miss always made it a terrible move for punishing baited lows. It was simply to range and character dependent (against Ryu, you had to be long to mid range and had to be half way done with start up frame in order to stuff his cr.mk), vs Oni’s which isn’t any of that. It’s shoot and forget type poke that would benefit Vega.

First of all thank you for typing like an human being.
Now:
1,2,3,4,5,6 - Stop saying that. All pokes force a reaction. Even block is a reaction. Look: Makoto’s stMP, Sakura’s crMK, E. Ryu’s crMP and a lot of other moves are in the category of “counter pokes” moves. They have a good hitbox and a good amount of active frames, in this way they can stick their move out there and get the hurtbox of your incoming move, then unleash the special that was buffered. That is how footsies is played with Vega. You have to bait them into throwing those moves out there and then punish their whiff. It has been like this for years. Vega is not, and shouldn’t, getting a move with good priority. He has EVERYTHING he needs to play in the ground. He doesn’t need anything else there. So no, Vega’s moves should not, by any means, act like that. stLK and crLP are the closest we can get of a counter poke. They are not as good as others pokes in that area, but they are better in every other aspect. Play by your strenghts and don’t ask for something that was never designed for your character.

Also, stLK can’t be crumpled ffs. Stop arguing with that. Aside from the situation that I have told you, it can’t happen and it didn’t happen to you. Because its impossible, the end.
And stLK crLP crMP FBA works on every character that makes a focus dash attempt after the stLK.

Its that talk to text

Off topic but also consider investing in this pedo:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B005ES6E6W/ref=redir_mdp_mobile?pc_redir=1

This thing is awesome for us phone users

As for oni’s normal, I’m not sure if you were meaning for Vega to gain a move like that or Oni lose that move, but I really don’t think Vega needs it or Oni needs to lose it. Besides, the only move that would really work on is sMK and I’m not sure I’d want a +1, 2, or 3 sMK with a reduced hurtbox at the cost of something else. Particularly when at the range you’d use it puts you out of combo and Kara throw range.

Also Vega’s AA game is sufficient… but I don’t like the risk vs reward Vega has to take by jumping to AA on almost every attempt.

117 dollars, so fools on the internet can take me serioulsy. fuck that bro, fuck that. but enticing and looks cool. I can finally type essay’s with ease for school

I want vega to gain a move like that, and I explained why. If you look at what Vega can do, and what artificial limiters are placed on him by the developers and game engine, you would see that gaining this, should be free. If the developers really want him to be such a ground heavy game, why give him so many fatal flaws?

Weak non existant mix up game, that is stopped by not pushing a button.
Weaker AA game that requires intensive knowledge and good read of what move he used or may have not used.
Weakerer control of vertical space and all good pokes shift hurtbox forward making his strong footsie game artificially weaker than it should be. Hence why cr.lp, cr.mp miss opponents that jump and are bearly of the floor, or those dive kicks rufus does.

1 and 2 can be ignored and not a big deal if 3 didn’t exist. even his fucking good points have flaws, WTF kind of design philosophy is this shit.

speaking of frame traps, how do you guys go about people using long normals to crouch tech? i use CH to frame trap, but against people like ken (cr.mk), vega, (cr.mp) and fei (cr.mp), it just doesn’t work. i had to rely on st.lk to frame trap, but even if i did successfully frame trap them, i can’t really do much damage other than just 2-3 hits of medium attacks. my only go to frame trap is st.lk, wait a bit, cr.lp, cr.mp, ex fba. do you all use this or is it just me?

Niah proper frame trapping will make opponent’s poke range irrelevant. the purpose of frame trapping is to induce a counter hit so you want to be hitting the opponent on startup. proper frame traps are set up at least +2 for the move you’re attempting to fish for a counter poke. if the opponents active frames are coming out then you’re not frame trapping properly. the main mileage you’re going to get from frame traps is catching people crouch teching

I still can’t believe oponents OS tech, or push buttons when Vega is in your face. ROFLCOPTER

I got a ton of use from that keyboard for school. Homework, papers, programming … all done on my phone with it. Its awesome. The oonly drawback… you can’t type lazy. Only 1 finger down at a time.

Like I said though… the only move I can see having that property is sMK and adding frame advantage (to lessen recovery without changing animations) doesn’t really change his footsie game since Vega’s can’t do anything at that range anyway. Its a similar argument to the one I had with Jozhear regarding safe jumps and being at a frame avantage only without frame traps or Kara throws. Its still not going to force a reaction.

There’s a better way to force a reaction (IMO) and that’s to make PoM +4 on hit. Because at that range he CAN Kara throw, frame trap, buffer ST or ultra, block, or continue the combo forcing the opponent to react properly or risk being put into the same situation again. A move like Oni’s only ends up acting like a bad version of SSF4 CH unless you mean reverting CH to SSF4 properties. And that’s fine if so. That’s your personal preference. But for me, I’d rather move away from Kara throw being the center of his entire offense.

And yes opponents still mash crouch tech, wake up dp, full screen ultra, jump in unsafely, take huge risks with the life lead, walk themselves into the corner, etc…

fuck Piece of Shit, really. It’s a stupid move, even if he could combo of it, it be retarded ,just give him back Cosmic Heel to SSF4 status.

The thing is, that vega’s offensive game will not stop being based around the kara throw unless he gets Cosmic Heel back, or get way better normals that control more vertical space with hurt box shuffling. Cr.mk made kara throw more abusable. CH, That was such a powerful footsie tool when used intelligently. and made his offense game a mid low throw game where there was an answer and strong punish for reading the opponent correctly on hit or on block.

and that change in recovery, start up, etc, does change a lot because it makes his neutral footsies better, and allows him to pressure the opponet by limiting the normals he can use. Being able to circumvent lows and other normals is a big deal for a footsie character. It’s not about doing more damage, but limiting options and forcing the opponent to guess more in the footsie battle. By forcing guesses, and controlling even more space, you limit the opponents normals, thus limiting his defensive and offensive normals during footsies. This gives you the ability to bully even safer, more efficient, and reduces the risk of you getting hit by anything down.

A change in the hit box nd hurt box imo is more significant than frame changes because space management matters more than being able to do more damage. Dhalsim wouldn’t be a better character if he got a combo that did around 50 more damage, but he would be affected much more significantly if they changed the hurt hit box on say his hp. It finishes the game faster, but it only applies if the opponent opened himself up that bad. And is of no consequence because mix ups for this character are weak so he can’t really force that opening again. He isn’t getting CH back, ever, he isn’t getting a real reversal that can be FADC. The least they can do is fix his normals and add at least one normal that works like Oni’s.

I said a COUNTER POKE is not Vega’s desing. GOD DAMMIT.

You make up something that I said and then go on and type four paragraphs trying to explain why what you made up is wrong.
glhf
Meanwhile I’ll look on wikipedia to learn how the engine of this game works. Thanks for the tip.

ugh, yes it is. Either you anticipate the move, or you whiff punish. when you punish somebody for being open, you counter, when you do a dp during a string, that’s a counter. when you anticipate a normal, you use the corresponding normal to counter. Reading, anticipating, and countering normals is part of footsies. Vega is a purely footsie character, therfore, he is hat you say he isn’t.

using cr.mk at max distance is counter poke, Cosmic Heel was a counter poke, piece of shit is a terrible counter to lows, st.mp is a counter to horizontal specials that propel the character forward. Slide max distance is a mediocre counter to moves that hit high but control some mid space.

shit the most abused move by vega, cr.mp, is a counter poke, it’s supposed to linger only slightly so that you walk into it or he catches you for not blocking.

[darkfroggy]

Pedo speaks fucking truth.

When the opponent decides to play turtle-fighter, there is absoutely nothing Vega can do.
Kara-throw game is just so predictable and ass.
Cosmic Heel is a negative unless you space it perfectly, which is stupidly hard to do for the miniscule advantage it brings. It also has a terrible hurtbox. You can’t even frame-trap if you time it perfectly, because none of his moves are 3 frames. Which brings us back to the predictable kara-throw game.
Poking is good when you’re ahead and playing keep-away. But when you’re behind, you bet any competent opponent will D/B all day and happily block those 0-chip pokes. Or just get counter-poked all day with their superior move hitboxes.

When you do get that life-lead, they expose your bad hurtboxes/weak ass AA, take a little gamble, and win off their superior mix-ups/pressure. We all know that Vega is the worst on the defensive; he’s the only character where non-safe blockstrings can be spammed all day because he has no mashable, good reversal. At any point they can just throw you and reset the situation again.

[Vegaman]

1. It still exists for those characters, and then for the remaining ones, you have to be mid range and cannot be at absolute max distance. The issue here wasn’t damage, it was how pokes works. whatever the fuck you can link it to or what you can do with respect to damage, does not matter at all. because I was talking about pokes and their function. Poking an opponent to force a reaction.

2. It can, because it has happened to me, it’s just harder and less practical. But it’s there which is the point. and even if I opt to block in the chance that it does happen, the opponent is at an advantage for guessing right, let go, or dash back, or some characthers can simply dash forward and be in my face.

3. Ill give you that, you got me on frame data. As if that is relavant in a discussion about hurt/hit boxes.

4. Because we are clearly only talking in a vaccum about focus dashing, and this vaccum is exclusive to what Vega can and can’t do with respect to focus dashing. I don’t know why you used balrog, seeing as to how he is such an extreme, but I really don’t give a shit. In that video, the Ken wasn’t at a disadvantage, Vega will be, others don’t have such a shitty ~21+ frame dash forward. He did it multiple times, and it’s a half assed answer to that move, but it’s an answer none the less. However, Vega would be at an even bigger disadvantage because st.mk and cr.mp all have long recovery frames.

5. Vega’s air game is enough if you actually know how and what controls what space. In fast paced games, players use normals more than specials. Get over it, if fools in KoF13 are AA with normals in a much faster, mix up heavy game, nobody on this board has the right to bitch about AA. What you people have and always wanted was a reversal for wake up. that =/= an AA.

6. and Vega is -4 on cr.mp, it shifts hit box forward making it a terrible poke against moves that linger mid range, leaves you way open (good players bait this and jump on you for free), free to smart focus dashing, is controls very little vertical space, can and will be stuffed by the right lows.

Oni -2, shifts hurt box back and does not extend forward or vertically so it can’t be hit by lows, is safe and hit box extends way past actual hurt box and character model, is quick and harder to bait and punish, controls more vertical space, can still be punished, but not to the extent cr.mp can.

It doesn’t get any simpler than that. If you still cannot understand what makes Oni’s kick so good, and why it functions as a pure poke better than anything Vega has, then you are stupid.

This isn’t about the move as a whole and what it can do. st.lk is a more practical useful poke from a holistic point of view. But this isn’t about the whole, when you examine that move as poke, it really isn’t that great of a poke compared to what pokes are. and why that move is irrevelant when it’s not even in the same class of moves.

@Vegaman, that was when Cosmic Heel was an actual good move. also the fact that the hit box was akward, and could miss always made it a terrible move for punishing baited lows. It was simply to range and character dependent (against Ryu, you had to be long to mid range and had to be half way done with start up frame in order to stuff his cr.mk), vs Oni’s which isn’t any of that. It’s shoot and forget type poke that would benefit Vega.

First of all thank you for typing like an human being.
Now:
1,2,3,4,5,6 - Stop saying that. All pokes force a reaction. Even block is a reaction. Look: Makoto’s stMP, Sakura’s crMK, E. Ryu’s crMP and a lot of other moves are in the category of “counter pokes” moves. They have a good hitbox and a good amount of active frames, in this way they can stick their move out there and get the hurtbox of your incoming move, then unleash the special that was buffered. That is how footsies is played with Vega. You have to bait them into throwing those moves out there and then punish their whiff. It has been like this for years. Vega is not, and shouldn’t, getting a move with good priority. He has EVERYTHING he needs to play in the ground. He doesn’t need anything else there. So no, Vega’s moves should not, by any means, act like that. stLK and crLP are the closest we can get of a counter poke. They are not as good as others pokes in that area, but they are better in every other aspect. Play by your strenghts and don’t ask for something that was never designed for your character.

Also, stLK can’t be crumpled ffs. Stop arguing with that. Aside from the situation that I have told you, it can’t happen and it didn’t happen to you. Because its impossible, the end.
And stLK crLP crMP FBA works on every character that makes a focus dash attempt after the stLK.

Its that talk to text

Off topic but also consider investing in this pedo:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B005ES6E6W/ref=redir_mdp_mobile?pc_redir=1

This thing is awesome for us phone users

As for oni’s normal, I’m not sure if you were meaning for Vega to gain a move like that or Oni lose that move, but I really don’t think Vega needs it or Oni needs to lose it. Besides, the only move that would really work on is sMK and I’m not sure I’d want a +1, 2, or 3 sMK with a reduced hurtbox at the cost of something else. Particularly when at the range you’d use it puts you out of combo and Kara throw range.

Also Vega’s AA game is sufficient… but I don’t like the risk vs reward Vega has to take by jumping to AA on almost every attempt.

117 dollars, so fools on the internet can take me serioulsy. fuck that bro, fuck that. but enticing and looks cool. I can finally type essay’s with ease for school

I want vega to gain a move like that, and I explained why. If you look at what Vega can do, and what artificial limiters are placed on him by the developers and game engine, you would see that gaining this, should be free. If the developers really want him to be such a ground heavy game, why give him so many fatal flaws?

Weak non existant mix up game, that is stopped by not pushing a button.
Weaker AA game that requires intensive knowledge and good read of what move he used or may have not used.
Weakerer control of vertical space and all good pokes shift hurtbox forward making his strong footsie game artificially weaker than it should be. Hence why cr.lp, cr.mp miss opponents that jump and are bearly of the floor, or those dive kicks rufus does.

1 and 2 can be ignored and not a big deal if 3 didn’t exist. even his fucking good points have flaws, WTF kind of design philosophy is this shit.

speaking of frame traps, how do you guys go about people using long normals to crouch tech? i use CH to frame trap, but against people like ken (cr.mk), vega, (cr.mp) and fei (cr.mp), it just doesn’t work. i had to rely on st.lk to frame trap, but even if i did successfully frame trap them, i can’t really do much damage other than just 2-3 hits of medium attacks. my only go to frame trap is st.lk, wait a bit, cr.lp, cr.mp, ex fba. do you all use this or is it just me?

Niah proper frame trapping will make opponent’s poke range irrelevant. the purpose of frame trapping is to induce a counter hit so you want to be hitting the opponent on startup. proper frame traps are set up at least +2 for the move you’re attempting to fish for a counter poke. if the opponents active frames are coming out then you’re not frame trapping properly. the main mileage you’re going to get from frame traps is catching people crouch teching

I still can’t believe oponents OS tech, or push buttons when Vega is in your face. ROFLCOPTER

I got a ton of use from that keyboard for school. Homework, papers, programming … all done on my phone with it. Its awesome. The oonly drawback… you can’t type lazy. Only 1 finger down at a time.

Like I said though… the only move I can see having that property is sMK and adding frame advantage (to lessen recovery without changing animations) doesn’t really change his footsie game since Vega’s can’t do anything at that range anyway. Its a similar argument to the one I had with Jozhear regarding safe jumps and being at a frame avantage only without frame traps or Kara throws. Its still not going to force a reaction.

There’s a better way to force a reaction (IMO) and that’s to make PoM +4 on hit. Because at that range he CAN Kara throw, frame trap, buffer ST or ultra, block, or continue the combo forcing the opponent to react properly or risk being put into the same situation again. A move like Oni’s only ends up acting like a bad version of SSF4 CH unless you mean reverting CH to SSF4 properties. And that’s fine if so. That’s your personal preference. But for me, I’d rather move away from Kara throw being the center of his entire offense.

And yes opponents still mash crouch tech, wake up dp, full screen ultra, jump in unsafely, take huge risks with the life lead, walk themselves into the corner, etc…

fuck Piece of Shit, really. It’s a stupid move, even if he could combo of it, it be retarded ,just give him back Cosmic Heel to SSF4 status.

The thing is, that vega’s offensive game will not stop being based around the kara throw unless he gets Cosmic Heel back, or get way better normals that control more vertical space with hurt box shuffling. Cr.mk made kara throw more abusable. CH, That was such a powerful footsie tool when used intelligently. and made his offense game a mid low throw game where there was an answer and strong punish for reading the opponent correctly on hit or on block.

and that change in recovery, start up, etc, does change a lot because it makes his neutral footsies better, and allows him to pressure the opponet by limiting the normals he can use. Being able to circumvent lows and other normals is a big deal for a footsie character. It’s not about doing more damage, but limiting options and forcing the opponent to guess more in the footsie battle. By forcing guesses, and controlling even more space, you limit the opponents normals, thus limiting his defensive and offensive normals during footsies. This gives you the ability to bully even safer, more efficient, and reduces the risk of you getting hit by anything down.

A change in the hit box nd hurt box imo is more significant than frame changes because space management matters more than being able to do more damage. Dhalsim wouldn’t be a better character if he got a combo that did around 50 more damage, but he would be affected much more significantly if they changed the hurt hit box on say his hp. It finishes the game faster, but it only applies if the opponent opened himself up that bad. And is of no consequence because mix ups for this character are weak so he can’t really force that opening again. He isn’t getting CH back, ever, he isn’t getting a real reversal that can be FADC. The least they can do is fix his normals and add at least one normal that works like Oni’s.

I said a COUNTER POKE is not Vega’s desing. GOD DAMMIT.

You make up something that I said and then go on and type four paragraphs trying to explain why what you made up is wrong.
glhf
Meanwhile I’ll look on wikipedia to learn how the engine of this game works. Thanks for the tip.

ugh, yes it is. Either you anticipate the move, or you whiff punish. when you punish somebody for being open, you counter, when you do a dp during a string, that’s a counter. when you anticipate a normal, you use the corresponding normal to counter. Reading, anticipating, and countering normals is part of footsies. Vega is a purely footsie character, therfore, he is hat you say he isn’t.

using cr.mk at max distance is counter poke, Cosmic Heel was a counter poke, piece of shit is a terrible counter to lows, st.mp is a counter to horizontal specials that propel the character forward. Slide max distance is a mediocre counter to moves that hit high but control some mid space.

shit the most abused move by vega, cr.mp, is a counter poke, it’s supposed to linger only slightly so that you walk into it or he catches you for not blocking.

So how would shifting the hurt box back on sMK force a reaction from the opponent? particularly if they have the life lead which gives them no reason to take that kind of risk.

when you safe jump against the opponent at least you have options following the jump in. you can Kara throw, block, or you can frame trap. after sMK though you have no offensive options other than walk forward. what good does controlling space do if you cannot follow through with some type of serious consequence after. because although you’ve given the opponent no reason to press a button at all when at mid range, there’s almost no risk if they do press a button. that’s great if you want to walk into Kara throw range, but when you only have one option following, it’s not really going to help your footsie game for more than a few exchanges.

this isn’t even considering the fact that more importantly, your opponent has no reason to play footsies at all. The simple answer is to anticipate a poke like sMK and jump over because the risk is so low and the reward is so high for getting in on Vega that way.

PoM on the other hand though, I can land against almost every opponent at least once during a match. The fact that even though piece of mercury has a 20 frame start up, making it +4 on hit gives you every offensive option except DP FADC afterwards and gets the opponent off down back. Obviously, it’s not as good as DP FADC because it doesn’t beat so many options simultaneously but I think it’s something that is reasonable and can actually give his offence some kind of bite to it while forcing a reaction from the opponent. (else they end up in the same situation again). Although I would love to have the old Cosmic heel back, the options following it on block are pretty much limited to blocking yourself, flipping to avoid DP FADC, frame traps, or Kara throw. and the situation doesn’t lead itself to putting the opponent in the exact same situation again if they block. You either have to push them back without any block strIngs available, or walk back giving up space yourself, effectively ending your pressure or taking a huge risk with an unsafe poke.

In order for sMK to become anything more than a minor inconvenience to the opponent, simply shifting the hurt box, expanding the hit box, and making it +3 on block isn’t enough. At a minimum it would have to be accompanied with a faster forward dash, a 3 frame normal that can combo, and a damage increase on the move as well.

[Haztlan]

I wonder how your Vega would ever lose if you could counter the counter pokes while anti airing like a boss that you are. All of that while controlling the space with the tools that Vega already have.

Really, how would Vega ever lose to Makoto, Cody, Dudley and Sakura if he had that?

[Vegaman]

I wonder how your Vega would ever lose if you could counter the counter pokes while anti airing like a boss that you are. All of that while controlling the space with the tools that Vega already have.

Really, how would Vega ever lose to Makoto, Cody, Dudley and Sakura if he had that?

Even with the buff I just mentioned to sMK and SSF4 CH and cHP’s active frames increased and PoM +4 on hit, he’d still be weak up close (all of those opponents are strong up close), and Vega would have no safe wake up options other than block.

I think it’s safe not to worry about an OP Vega that can’t stop pressure effectively, doesn’t have a blockstring, and no invincibility on any reversal other than ultra

[Haztlan]

All these matchups are even. Actually, Dudley have a hard time against Claw already. Give Vega a option to counter their primary way to get in that is counter poking with a buffered special that gives them momentum (stHK xx EX MGB / crMK xx HP SRK and so on) and you will screw with those characters. Meanwhile Rufus, Cammy, Gouki, Ibuki, Abel and Adon still laugh at you.

The discussion of what Vega needs is long gone. Now the point is to explain why a poke like Oni’s will not address ANY of Vega’s problems.

C’mon, pedo. Give me a bad matchup that demands Vega to have that kind of a counter poke. (Abel comes to mind, but the problem in this matchup is when he has a bar. When he is meterless we already own the neutral game anyway)