Thank you for answering. For number 1 though I should have specified if they block the first jumping fierce. I know you can jump fierce and if they block you can hit with lp for example and they cant mash out the first lp. I want to know if its the same with cl fierce since it has 9 frames instead of 4 frames like cr lp.
What do you mean you cant cancel it? It’s pretty much the same way as cancelling the normal one for viper, except you have to do it abit faster.
I actually tried doing it to see if your wall dive would miss me but the gay lag messed up my timing lol
Thanks Buddhas weapon. I finally got it down. I physically can’t press the L bumper fast enough lol which is why I couldn’t figure it out, but with practice I kind of can do it.
Sasaki, when I have more time I’ll get back to you with answers regarding your post. As for the recording:
I have to get a hold of my friend who has recording equipment so I can record how OS throw CH works. If you guys still can’t get the timing down, I’ll probably just use a camcorder to show how it’s done with a training dummy in training mode but the quality won’t be so great. I’d like to avoid the latter haha. But I promise you guys that it works. Keep trying. The timing is tricky. Remember, record Claw to CH point blank against Ryu (CH should hit) and then OS throw (while holding down back) at the very end of the animation just before he can actually do anything (this way you won’t see the cr.lk). Then playback, as Ryu (or anyone with a good reversal) block the CH and and go for a throw immediately (at the very first possible frame you’re able to). If you did it all correctly, you’ll see Claw tech even though you inputted the OS throw during the animation when recording. Then you can restart and try to reversal DP right after you block the CH and Claw will block. If you mess up the first time, just press restart so you guys could be at your initial positions. It might sound tedious but it’s the most accurate way, probably the best way to do so. You’re dealing with a training dummy here. Remember, the input for the OS throw differs based on the spacing and a training dummy has no concept of “spacing”. It just inputs your button presses at the same pace regardless if the CH is spaced or not.
I hope that helps. Post your results. If you guys still can’t get Claw to tech (not even once), I’ll see to uploading a video as soon as I can.
Remember, you just need to see Claw tech the throw once just so you can get an understanding of how it works. In an actual match, it gets even harder since you have to constantly adjust the timing based on your spacing. I have reached about 70% ~ 80% efficiency when I play on a TV with no lag… and that’s assuming I’m having a good day >_< Yeah… it’s hard. But so is playing Claw and nobody said it would be an easy ride haha.
More Info on the CH!
More reason why it’s Claws best poke by far. CH has 5 active frames and if you hit with the very first active frame on block, you are left at -1 frame disadvantage (which means it’s generally safe on block except against Giefs Double German Suplex =( ). But…! If you space it (or do it meaty) so you hit with the last frame of it’s active frame, you’ll be left at +3 frame advantage on block! Which means, rather than going for the OS throw, you can also go on the offensive. Go for a cr.lp and try to catch a counter hit, and then hit confirm into EX walldive, etc (you can see Makoto go for this in the video Sasaki uploaded against a Rufus). When you analyze the numbers more closely, if you don’t use it point blank, CH is virtually un-punishable on block since you’re left at 0 frame advantage or higher (the highest being +3 frames).
Basically, OS throw should be best done when you want to play it safe. However, if you do space it well, you have the option to go on the offensive. But be wary of reversal DP.
Hope all this new info helps.
Your right. I never thought about that. Thanks for the info.
So that’s why I always got away with those jabs after df.hk…
Does it only work point blank then?! OR should the OS be done only on point blank?!
To make things simpler, do it point blank in training mode. But OS throw CH can work no matter the spacing.
I’ve finally gotten it to work! If I throw, Vega techs and if I reversal shoryu (message shows up) he blocks. This is brilliant!
Its funny cause I did this a few times without even trying to. Pretty good info. I wonder if this works for jump attacks or other attacks where you have - frames.
Yup, that’s it. Good work.
My final tips regarding CH in an actual match:
In an actual match, even if you input the OS throw during the final frames of blocked CH correctly, and your opponent goes for the throw… chances are, you might get thrown more often than you would actually tech. The reason why is NOT because you inputted your OS incorrectly but because your opponent didn’t go for the throw as soon as he was able to. This is especially the case when your opponent isn’t familiar with the properties of CH (however, if they try to reversal DP, you will always block).
To counter this, you must prepare to OS throw normally after you input the OS throw during the CH when it’s blocked. I said this in a much earlier post but this is how it’s done… when you use CH, input the OS throw during the last frames of CH when it’s blocked (like you normally would) and then pause for a slight moment (just right after your opponent recovers from the block stun) and then input cr.lp+cr.lk again (i.e. OS throw again). The results…?
This way if your opponent times his throw right away, you’ll tech it because you inputted your OS throw during the last frames of CH, if he tries to reversal dp, cr.jab etc., you will block it no matter what. If he goes for a throw a bit later than he was able to then you’ll tech because you inputted your OS throw again normally right after and if he hesitates, you’ll poke him with cr.lk in which you can follow up accordingly (go for a tick throw, bait a throw attempt and go for another CH etc.). This is essentially what OS throw does when used in between block strings and it serves the same purpose here.
This is exactly what Cat-K/Makoto etc. does. You have to learn to OS throw in between gaps. It’s harder to understand in theory but much easier to understand in practice. After much practice, you’ll begin inputting the OS throw during CH reflexively on block and everything else will take care of itself.
I think your explanation is pretty solid. Good work.
Thanks! Really appreciate it.
Thanks to Sasaki for pointing the new findings in this thread out to me yesterday. Also thanks to kouryuu for the great explanations.
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I tried the CH OS a few times yesterday and got it to work. Its always good to have more options for a character, but I think the use of this OS is rather limited. NOT because its hard to pull off (I nailed it pretty consistently at last) but because the use of point blank CH is very limited.
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I didn?t know the exact frame numbers for max range CH (thx to kouryuu again) but I always felt there had to be some frame advantage for max range CH because of the shenanigans you could pull off after. I always try to do CH at max distance or meaty because the options after are so great (cr.LK, cr.LP, throw, nj, backdash) and let you stay on the offense. Point blank CH is IMO just a bad idea, the slow start-up makes it very risky and normally Vega doesn?t want to be point blank at the opponent in the first place, so I don?t think this will be very useful in actual matches.
It doesn’t have to be point blank for it to work. It can work regardless of the spacing. Even if CH is spaced perfectly on block, if Claw does anything other than block or backflip, he can still eat a reversal dp (e.g. Ryu) since, outside of a throw, he has nothing that comes out faster than 4 frames. This OS is a way for Claw to have a solid defense without having to guess what the opponent is going to do when CH is blocked.
And I do agree, CH point blank isn’t the best idea lol.
Yes, i got that this works on non point blank CH but its effectiveness is decreasing with more frame advantage. You said a perfectly spaced CH leaves you at +3, therefore (if im not making any mistakes) a cr.LP will beat out everything (incl. throw) exept a move with startup invincibility used at their first frame after block stun (which approx. half the cast doesn?t have). Leaves SRK type of moves where this could be a viable option but everytime you use it you?re sacrificing a good pressure opportunity for being safe. This COULD be a good choice (Ryu with 2 meters) for eliminating the guessing game afterwards and bait Ryu to burn his 2 meters but its situational, have to be calculated by risk/reward and we have to see how hard it is to pull off in a real match, but like I said, it?s a nice option, but I think its use is limited.
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I don?t know if this works, but an idea that I will try later is, to use the frame advantage to walk back. The reversal would also be blocked and may be 5 frames (+3 + 2 frames throw startup) is enough to walk out of the throw and short range of the opponent? Therefore the opponent whiffing the throw completely and could be punished with whatever you like. I don?t know, 5 frames to walk back is a very small window, but since a max range CH doesn?t leave you directly at point blank it could work. Don?t know, could be just a silly and nave idea, guess I have to try it after work?
Like I said in one of my earlier posts, when CH is spaced perfectly, you have the option to go on the offensive. It’s all up to the players judgement.
Thank you Capcom for allowing Jump in Fierce to combo with Ultra I
How are you sure the Japanese are actually doing this? Not that I don’t appreciate the new info, but a simple late option select tech after ch has always been very very strong at deterring offense for me post ch. It still will block the reversal dp, low attack ect, break throw ect.
Again, I don’t want to come off as negative, just wondering if you got it from a message board or whatnot. What is more important than just on post ch is the reason this works with the game
system, that will require some testing for me to further understand, although I have a few ideas.
For sasaki’s earlier question, throws have 4f recovery on landing. If no move is done, all 4f can be canceled to block or throw break (so you should always throw break hah), if a move is done, the first 2f are vunerable, but I believe you can still input throw break for all 4. When I catch the japanese hitting throws they do it with crouch mk post throw, even better now in super! I am not sure this would work after crouch mp because the recovery on your own move is too great to land a hit. If anything I would mess with crouch lp. I believe arietlhththth or whatever his name is posted about cr.mp going under moves a while back, to give credit where it is due.
Guys, in super, I believe that U1 goes higher then it was back in vanilla.
That being said, I’m having some problems doing FA crumble > dash back > Ultra ( wall behind )
It seems to be a bit more strict. Just putting it out there…