Vega Combos & Glitches

I have yet been able to pull off the CH O/S throw. Is there any cue you need to look out for or is it just at the very end?! I’ve had a buddy be the dummy but it never really worked. You said that the timing is tricky, any tips on how to pull it off?

What trap?! The lvl3 FA? I’m not sure about the reason Ujiki attempted it but as for Makoto, it was able to bait out a normal to the crumple as punish. I think Ujiki was maybe expecting a quick wake-up, but since it didn’t happened, held it hoping that it would get lvl 3 as the opponent woke up.

As for the neut. jump to CH, my opinion is that it is used to bait normals as well as to gain space. Jump ins in this game is very risky, but when you neutral jump, people are expecting that you anticipated a jump in from their part, and so that will tell them not to jump at you as you land because you might jump again and catch them. That being said, most people will try to zone you out with their longest poke as you land because they want to stay at a safe distant if you jump in. That’s when CH is able to punish their pokes. CH is also used for a hop in this game, and after a n.j., it is quick enough for the other to not being able to react to it as a jump in, and so you are able to get closer.

Just keep trying. Input lp+lk at the very end of the animation of CH while holding db. And make sure your opponent throws you as soon as possible. You could do this by yourself in training mode as well. Nothing more I can say. Keep practicing. Not something you can get overnight.

And the trap Ujiki tried to pull off was rh.ST > Lvl.3 FA, Makoto’s was rh.ST (in corner) > meaty Izuna drop (I’ve yet to test it out).

Also, for those who think neutral jumping baits out pokes from the opponents… you’re wrong. Sure an opponent might try to poke you as you come down from a neutral jump but it is by no means a “bait.” I can almost promise you this. The reason Cat-K did a neutral jump is because he tried to anticipate a jump in from his opponents. After all, jump ins are a pretty viable option vs. Claw. If you think otherwise, you aren’t playing anyone good.

I’ve got nothing more to say. If I find out anything new about Claw I’ll be sure to post it!

"Also, for those who think neutral jumping baits out pokes from the opponents… you’re wrong. "

@Kouryuu- I doubt anyone thinks that, or at least I hope not. I also think that what Vanhyuk was saying is not that the jumping itself is a bait but rather the fact that if you are within attack range and the other player goes on the offense because of the fact that he thinks you will not jump what could happen. I’m guessing thats more what he meant.

Also I commented about the ST to meaty Izuna. It works given the distance and timing is meaty, and that Viper has no meter. The only way to escape a meaty Izuna w/o meter is through backdashing in which case you would get hit by the claw attack which is a better trade for her or by using an invincible attack which you would get hit. Oh yea the thunder knuckle has invincibility so no it would not work as a meaty attack. If you time it so that they reversal and your throw is not meaty then you could just dodge the knuckle and Izuna grab.

TK does not have throw invincibility. EX SH might be a viable option. Let’s not assume without actually testing it out. After all, it might be possible by theory but not in practice (i.e. really hard to pull off).

That is what I meant. Notice how Itabashi threw a st.mp on both times when cat-k empty neutral jump. It’s about getting in the mind of the opponent with that spacing.

As for the Viper, it simply might be the fact that he choked. I mean first he get crumpled, then knocked down, after vega is crossing him up under him and goes over him. The fact that he tech recovered means he was holding a down motion. Plus, Makoto was right in the middle of Viper, making her not only guess where to block but also making her risk putting in the wrong input ( the only thing she could have “safely” done to get out was hp.thunder) . I actually believe the izuna was by cross-up, very hard to tell though. Under those circumstances, anyone could get easily mind-fucked.

Which goes back to my original comment on how df.rh is Claws best poke/counter-poke. But let’s not digress. Nothing new has been said about df.rh that I didn’t cover in my first few posts. I’m sure Sasaki’s question has been answered.

Like I said, let’s not assume. =)

hey koryuu,do you play on psn man?
it would really be great to get a few games with you!

I think Alex is completely correct on the point that empty neutral jump --> CH works due to the hitbox changing. If you watch the previous video [media=youtube]Ub6JSFLJg9Q#t=0m54s"[/media] then you clearly see Claw avoiding a St HP from Gief due to CH hitbox change. This, plus CH being a great poke and punisher, makes a great combination.

@Kouryuu- You are right then, its HP TK is not invincible to throws which means that it can be izuna dropped, which is what I originally thought. I misread the wiki info when I saw I frames I didn’t see the not throw invincibility part. I also forgot to mention that EX burning kick has 8 I frames so that could work as well. So on meaty she is defenseless for sure without meter, except for the backdash which will work in escaping the meaty Izuna.

Oh wait she could also do a cr attack which automatically sets her as crouching so there will be no standing animation, but I don’t know what would happen in that scenario. Since the claw attack comes out in 3-4 (I am unsure what the (1) means in the frame data, is it active or is that the startup from izuna to claw attack) frames it should at the very least hit her with that attack. If she doesn’t attack then she would still get hit cause you can’t block claw attack if you are crouching. hmm now that I think about it, it should be possible to cr if there is no crossup and then after the 1 frame of Izuna whiff to FA on the very last frame which would absorb the claw attack and enable you to get a free hit combo.

If there is no crossup, then she can use her ultra as well with 10 I frames to counter you.

I’m well aware what she can do on wake up. By theory, if she techs and doesn’t do a wake up reversal or backdash she will be Izuna dropped. Similar to Cammy’s Hooligan traps.

Reading this, I suggest you re-evaluate your understanding of the game since you have much to learn about the mechanics. I don’t mean to come off as rude but your knowledge of this game is really lacking. If you don’t know why I would say this, then © Cammy’s Hooligan traps.

@kouryuu- I do not take offense into what you said, although it would be more helpful if you actually gave information that is more helpful to me. If you say “I suggest you re-evaluate your understanding of the game since you have much to learn about the mechanics.” Then that doesn’t tell me what I really need to learn because it is not everything that I need to relearn but in fact one little factor or a few if I am in fact incorrect. If you would please tell me that which you think I should look into or just tell me how the factors work, then that would be more helpful.

I accidentally had switched it up; you don’t stand if you hold crouch and then get crossed up upon knockdown. If you don’t crossup then you stand first, unless you do a crouching attack in which you automatically crouch and do not stand.

I do want to understand the mechanics of the game and improve my game. That is why I come here as well as others. If you could help, then please feel free. I truly believe that your intentions are to help instead of to antagonize so please do help if you would.

As a side note I will test this later on when I have access to the game, as well as the hooligan combo and share my results.

Also I am unsure to what you truly wanted to understand about the Izuna meaty. If you want to know the practically aspect, then with meter all those options that I gave you are very viable, since decent viper players escape it all the time using it. Also considering that EX seismo has 12 frames of invincibility it gives alot of room for error and to still be successful. I have not played Viper players who are experts at defending against the Izuna but I have seen successful attempts at escaping Izuna using the moves I said, and many failed attempts at using other moves.

My comment was mainly directed towards your comment about countering a meaty Izuna by crouching upon tech. Upon teching when knocked down, a crouch does not register in the initial frames of the get up animation. It is during that small time frame that you go for the meaty Izuna. So crouching is not a viable escape. The only exception to this is wake up reversal (for viper, that would be EX SH, EX BK and Ultra) and backdash (which is not as easy to do as it sounds when dealing with a walldive). Nothing else will work. Of course, Viper could just as easily not tech and avoid the trap altogether.

I suggested looking into Cammy’s hooligan trap set ups because if this trap for Claw works, they could very well be similar. This will give you a clear understanding of why crouching upon tech is not a valid option. Go to training mode and do this:

Select any character and choose your training dummy as Cammy. Set it to record and have Cammy f.throw you. The moment she recovers from the f.throw animation, do a mp.hooligan and have her grab you with her hooligan grab when you get up from her f.throw. Now set it to playback, and try crouching upon wake up. You’ll see that your crouch doesn’t register in time and you still get grabbed by her Hooligan. Normally, Cammy can’t grab opponents with her Hooligan when they crouch but notice how you still get grabbed even when holding down upon get up. The only way out of it is wake up reversal or a backdash. That’s it.

This is just one of a few Hooligan traps she has. There are plenty of information on the Cammy boards if you’re interested.

You also asked what I want to know about the Izuna and my answer to that is, nothing. What I do want to know is if Claw has an option in said situation that could score him free damage when the opponent techs the rh.ST in the corner (of course, the situation varies with each character; in Vipers case, it’s best done when she has no meter). That’s all I want to know.

Good answers and discussion right here. I had already thought of purposes for those setups and needed someone to confirm them for me. Having rewatched some of his and other japanese Claw videos I also think he anticipated a jump in via neutral jump. This can especially be used often because of Vega’s fast jumpspeed. Also, not being able to respond with an air to air in time makes people want to hit him as soon as he lands, so I guess both of you were somewhat right.
But anyways, let’s move on. Some more interesting topics today:

  • A lot of JP Vega players like to pressure Rufus with neutral jump hard kick (often into cl.st.hp) especially on wakeup. Some examples:

[media=youtube]iVTwrxVM3qM#t=3m46s[/media] (Yamasan)
[media=youtube]4wLUx8zn1ko#t=0m44s[/media] (Makoto)
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm10067060 (7m27s, Rambo)

I’m guessing they do this because it somehow beats or [media=youtube]iVTwrxVM3qM#t=4m27s"[/media]. Could it be that this even works without safejumping the opponent?
I’m sure that the reason why they do cl.hp is probably the ridiculous amount of pushback the move has and the fact that it combos into Vega strongest combo pretty easily on Rufus.

  • Cr.mp makes Vega’s hitbox small. Did you know Cat-K used it to [media=youtube]iVTwrxVM3qM#t=9m55s"[/media] Now, the question is: was this only a happy accident? Banbaban had used the tatsu/throw mixup before, so it might not even be that wrong to say Cat-K did this on purpose.

  • [media=youtube]iVTwrxVM3qM#t=9m12s"[/media]. I have been trying this lately and surprisingly enough, this shit really works sometimes. You just need to nail the timing. Any thoughts on this?

EDIT: I will probably upload those Rambo sets to my channel tomorrow.

Wow Kouryuu that info on the Cosmic heel Os is golden. I have to start applying that right away. I need to work that into my game.

and I agree with what you’re saying about the neutral jump cosmic heel. I neutral jump a lot to preemptivelydefend against jump ins. Using all of Vega’s njump attacks yuo can air-to-air just about anything succesfully. The cosmic heel was like you said probably jut because he was in range and decided to go for it.

Another OS I am thining about applying to my game is meaty st. lk on their wakeup OS Cosmic Heel to punish backdashes. Combo with slide since yuo won’t be able to charge ST if, your st. lk gets blocked you should probably do another st. LK. The timing is really hard because the st. lk if it is blocked the difference between if it is whiffed is very small. I think I can figure it out though, will help a ton against Chun Li. Might have to use sweep in some cases as cosmic heel’s startup is pretty slow.

Also another trick i have ben doing lately is c. jab, c.jab walk forward very quickly like only enoguh that it is possible to recognize Vega is standing then c. jab, st. RH. It punishes twitch reactions or mash option select tech as people react to Vega standing and immediately go for the c. lk. It’s a nice meaty cobmo, another thing I’ve been doing is walk under somenoes’ jump in and punish their throw tech with c. jab st. RH. big damage where normally you wouldn’t get it.

@ Sasaki: I use jump ins on Rufus and follow up with close fierce always. Liek you said it generates sufficient pushback to stay safe from Rufus and his craziness. plus unlike most charaters you can ALWAYS combo on Rufus after you connect with that.

As for c. mp under jump ins, yeah I do that all the tiem. Punish with throw, beats people very often. It’s a trick that is really hard for people to catch on but not something you can get to work every time. Ryu’s jumping medium kick pretty much gets it every time.

As far as other tricks go, how often do you guys bait reversals doing Izuna? Contrary to what some Vegas say Izuna isn’t always a 100% against characters who are suspectible to it. Sometimes I bait reversals in the corner and punish their cooldown with an off-the behind wall ultra since the start up gets shaved down big time. It’s a really safe easy way to hit with the ultra on people who are overzealous when it comes to defending themselves frmo the loop. Great against Sagat, Cammy, Guile, Ryu, and others with DP.

Also the main focus of my game right now is hit confirming. Getting every jump in to end with an ST and also comboing at any point I feel I would lose my charge disallowing me to do jump fierec c. mk HK ST. Sometimse you don’t expect that jump in to hit at all and it dose and it’s a surprise, so I’m learning how to consistently do jump fierce, c. mk, c. fierce or st. rh for example. Or of course the hit confirms into EX FBA. Also, on the ground I’m trying to hit confirm from c. mk more. Either into st. RH and c. fierce. The good news about c. mk is if you get cuonter hit, you can pretty mcuh always combo into RH. If it hits your first instinct should be RH. Te second part of the kick still combos. Which brings me to another point: close medium kick. Trying to use that move some more, it’s got a wonky range, looks like it pushes yuo realy far back like C. Viper’s st. lk. Kara throw follow up is great and also on block leaves you at a god frame +/- so stuff like c. jab immediately afer is pretty good at stopping option select techs. I have to learn how to hit confirm off of close mk and combo but it’s tough to see when exactly you get the counter hit, cause otherwise it won’t combo.

Also: Final point. Certain matchups I’m beginning to think EX FBA is useless incombos and that all priority should be placed on landing ST. Why? Far more mixups and like 10 or 20 less damage, but much mroe stun. Higher chances of ending the round afer you land an ST because if you’re mixing up well and comboing into ST as much as possible you can stun people pretty quick. Not THAT quick of course… but it’s easier than EX FBA comboing on characters who can’t get looped like balrog and then only doign something lame like c. lk on his wakeup. ST means corpsehops, which if anything kill back charges and forec people to be aware, you’re much closer to jump in and safe jump of course, KKK flip slide which is a safe setup for the slide, makes it max distance, etc. Conversely, in certain matchups like vs Sagat, Viper and thel ike comboing into EX FBA shuold be utmost priority. Even my go-to combo cosmic heel ST i’m considering using EX FBA instead. Why not? better set up for the vortex (unless you’re in the corner). Much more damage netted here on characters who suck at getting out of meaty izuna then trying to stun them. It’s tough to figure out what’s best to get going against who though. I’m trying to slowly assess which combos are smarter to do agaisnt which characters. FOr example, Ryu. He’s not bad at getting out of meaty izuna. He struggles but his focus makes things pretty easy for him. So, I would combo into HK ST if I had 0 meter or 1 bar, but if I had two bars, I might combo into EX FBA off the cosmic heel and then EX FBA or the meaty izuna which will also beat his focus thanks to two hit-slash. So i’m trying to figure things uot like that isntead of going for thes ame plans against different characters. It pays to be aware of shit like that because like I said I’m pretty sure you can end up stunning and killing people just a little bit faster by using the right moves agaisnt them.

I think that’s all I have left to say. I still think any Vega who can’t kara throw needs to learn how to do so ASAP. Been playing alot of Vegas lately who still can’t do that, it’s inexcusable guys, you NEED to know how to do that or else your mixup game is nowhere near as good as it can be.

Wow this is pretty cool stuff here.

@ Sasaki

That cr.mp stuff is god right there. But what if they start mashing jab before they land? Will you grab them or what do you think would happen there? Or the lack of hit stun will allow Vega to grab as soon as they land grabbing them before the punch comes out.

Pretty nice writeup there, Joz. I’ll put it to good use.

@Pedo: I think after landing there are a few frames where you can’t budge because you’re still in the jump recovery. That’s when you grab. At least I think it’s this way but I’d like someone with more knowledge on the game to comment on this. Like Destin for example.

kool, i remeber hearing that if you throw a move out when you jump you’re frames at the end of your jump will take longer to recover. BTW are OS great? I dont use those. The only one that i see that looks godlike is the CH OS.

I hope K?ryu can record the OS soon. I’m also having quite a bit of trouble with it, haha. I guess I’ll keep on practising until he has the video up.

It appears that there are standing frames even from a crossup if you input crouch and crouch attack. I should test it better though as I was only testing what I saw as opposed to what could be different maybe, which I doubt. I haven’t tested the cammy hooligan yet so Ill try that right away.

@jozhear Did you test to see that the st lk OS CH would really work against chun or Vega who have fast backdashes that also travel far? It just sounds like it wouldn’t work frame wise, especially since they probably would be far enough away for the CH to not hit in the beginning frames.

I have also been going under people’s jumps alot lately but I use back throw to punish their landing instead of your combo. Although I want to use cr HP instead but sometimes I get stuffed which is weird looking or I completely miss which is also weird cause it looks like it hits. In Super I am fairly certain that the hitbox has been changed to actually make it more useful though. This way it would be more reliable if they didn’t attack while jumping to actually punish them for it where the cr lp wouldn’t get the job done.

Also I have two questions.

  1. Is it possible to get a jump fierce into cl fierce w/o the opponent able to reversal DP in between those two moves? Back in my really noobish days it used to happen to me alot against noob sagats and Ryus.

  2. Does anyone know how to cancel Viper’s EX seismo? I have been trying to do it but can’t. I would like to know how so that I could see how effective it is a counter to Vega’s izuna vortex. I can cancel the normal ones, but not the EX, and I have seen other Viper players do it so I know it is possible.

  1. Yes jumping fierce combos to standing fierce, ala hard trial 4.

  2. I believe those Vipers are super jump canceling that ex seismo.