Vega Basics, Set-ups, and Tactics (with Hitbox!)

Hey fellow Vega players,

since I’m at the moment pretty worn out from actually playing, I decided to try to contribute something to this community.

We have a lot of good sticky threads with tons of valuable information, but what I think is missing is a general info thread with basic information, setups, tactics, frame traps etc for beginner as well as advanced and expert players.

The other day I was looking for new safe jump setups and scrolled through tons of threads. There were some good information, but scattered around, something in the matchup thread, other stuff in the video thread and so on. Also we dont have an information thread which gets updated consistantly in the first post.

I was working on a tutorial video to showcase most of my contributions but unfortunatly I suffered a hdd crash and all my footage as well as my scripts and tons of collected information are gone (basically the only data I have no backup of… :frowning: )

So a little overview (and summary) what this thread should contain:

[LIST]
[]a small section with basic information for beginners (character overview, pro&cons, B&B combos)
[
]setups, eg after “standard situations” (Izuna Drop, CH ST with or without quick stand, throws, CH on block)
[]safe jumps
[
]option selects
[]frame traps
[
]maybe general tactics… I hope you get the idea…
[/LIST]

So what do you think of that? I’d like to hear your thoughts on this idea, especially from the veterans, because I will need your help by reposting information present in other threads or by sharing “new” information.

I will keep this thread up to date and formated so its easy readable, test your input in training mode and discuss things with you.

For now, I will “reserve” the next post and start writing stuff from the top of my head. If YOU decide this thread is worth having I will delete this “starting comment” and update it with the real information.

Notations: Moves will be displayed as direction.button.

Directions:
s = standing
cl = close
cr = crouching
j = jumping
nj = neutral jump
jb = jump back

Buttons:
LP MP HP
LK MK HK

**Legend: **
CH = Cosmic Heel, df.HK
ST = Scarlet Terror
RCF = Rolling Crystal Flash
FBA = Flying Barcelona Attack (Walldive)

xx = cancel
, = link

Hitbox Data:

I put some work into it to bring you the hitbox data of vegas normals. You can see the hitboxes from the first to the last active frame in images and an animation.

Hitbox Data

Spoiler

[Spoiler=Hitbox Data Explanation, Thanks to tonylew84]

[LIST]
[]s.LP
[LIST]
[
]1 2
[]Animation
[/LIST]
[
]s.MP
[LIST]
[]1 2
[
]Animation
[/LIST]
[]s.HP
[LIST]
[
]1 2 3
[]Animation
[/LIST]
[
]s.LK
[LIST]
[]1 2
[
]Animation
[/LIST]
[]s.MK
[LIST]
[
]1 2
[]Animation
[/LIST]
[
]s.HK
[LIST]
[]1 2 3 4
[
]Animation
[/LIST]
[/LIST]

[LIST]
[]cl.LP
[LIST]
[
]1 2
[]Animation
[/LIST]
[
]cl.MP
[LIST]
[]1 2
[
]Animation
[/LIST]
[]cl.HP
[LIST]
[
]1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
[]Animation
[/LIST]
[
]cl.LK
[LIST]
[]1 2
[
]Animation
[/LIST]
[]cl.MK
[LIST]
[
]1 2
[*]Animation
[/LIST]
[/LIST]

[LIST]
[]cr.LP
[LIST]
[
]1 2
[]Animation
[/LIST]
[
]cr.MP
[LIST]
[]1 2
[
]Animation
[/LIST]
[]cr.HP
[LIST]
[
]1 2
[]Animation
[/LIST]
[
]cr.LK
[LIST]
[]1 2
[
]Animation
[/LIST]
[]cr.MK
[LIST]
[
]1 2 3
[]Animation
[/LIST]
[
]cr.HK
[LIST]
[]1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
[
]Animation
[/LIST]
[/LIST]

[LIST]
[]j.LP
[LIST]
[
]1 2 3 4 5
[]Animation
[/LIST]
[
]j.MP
[LIST]
[]1 2 3 4 5
[
]Animation
[/LIST]
[]j.HP
[LIST]
[
]1 2 3 4
[]Animation
[/LIST]
[
]j.LK
[LIST]
[]1 2 3 4 5 6 7
[
]Animation
[/LIST]
[]j.MK
[LIST]
[
]1 2 3 4 5 6
[]Animation
[/LIST]
[
]j.HK
[LIST]
[]1 2 3 4 5 6
[
]Animation
[/LIST]
[/LIST]

[LIST]
[]nj.LP
[LIST]
[
]1 2 3 4 5
[]Animation
[/LIST]
[
]nj.MP
[LIST]
[]1 2 3
[
]Animation
[/LIST]
[]nj.HP
[LIST]
[
]1 2
[]Animation
[/LIST]
[
]nj.LK
[LIST]
[]1 2 3 4 5 6
[
]Animation
[/LIST]
[]nj.MK
[LIST]
[
]1 2 3 4 5 6
[]Animation
[/LIST]
[
]nj.HK
[LIST]
[]1 2 3 4 5
[
]Animation
[/LIST]
[/LIST]

[LIST]
[]Piece of Mercury
[LIST]
[
]1 2 3
[]Animation
[/LIST]
[
]Cosmic Heel
[LIST]
[]1 2 3 4 5
[
]Animation
[/LIST]
[/LIST]
Videos for all available moves:

I finally uploaded all Hitbox Videos, unfortunately there are no vids for Scarlet Terror available :frowning:

Okay, prepare for some crappyness (lol, is this even a word?) in both image quality and hitbox data. Here are the only hitboxes available for ST

LKMKHKEX

[/details]

Important Links and Combos:

Important Links and Combos

Spoiler

Important Links:

cl.HP, cr.MP (2 Frame)
cr.MK, cr.MP (2 Frame)
s.LK, cr.LP (2 Frame)
cr.LP, cr.LP (1 Frame)
cr.LP, cr.MP (1 Frame)

B&B Combos:

CH, ST
cl.HP, cr.MP xx EX FBA
cr.MK, cr.MP xx EX FBA
cr.LP, cr.MP xx EX FBA

Advanced Combos:

s.LK, cr.LP, cr.MP xx EX FBA

Safe Jumps:

Safe Jumps

Spoiler

[Spoiler=Back Throw]
[LIST]
[]Immediately hold uf and jump in with a late j.MP. Most reversals will be blocked or whiff completly, see this thread, thanks to Deuy[/LIST]
[
]Back Throw out of the corner, immediate jump in of the wall with j.HP. Thanks to Tatsu

CH --> ST

Spoiler

[LIST]
[]CH, ST, Back Dash and jump in with j.MP. Same as above.
[
]If the opponent doesn’t quick-stand, whiff a cr.LP and neutral jump with a late nj.MK, safe to 4 frame reversals.
[*]After CH, ST, whiff a cr.MK and jump in with a late j.HP. Safe to all reversals > 4 frames (not shoryuken :frowning: ) (opponent has to quick stand)
[/LIST]

Izuna Drop

Spoiler

[LIST]
[*]After Izuna Drop, whiff a cr.MK and jump in with a late j.HK. Safe to all reversals > 4 frames (not shoryuken :frowning: )
[/LIST]

[/details]

Frame Traps:

Note: Frame traps will allways get beaten by reversals with invincibility, so use with caution!

Frame Traps

Spoiler

[LIST]
[]cr.mk - cr.lp (hit confirm into combo) or kara throw
[
]far.lk - cr.lp (hit confirm into combo) or kara throw
[]cr.lp - throw
[
]late df.hk - (depending on how far/late): cr.lp or throw (AE 2012: Only throw on a perfect max-range CH still working)
[]When you see a RCF hit, you are also provided with a frame trap in which you may cr.lp or cr.mp depending on the distance (RCF is +2 on hit)
[
]After Izuna Drop, dash forward, CH to corpse hop over and imediate cr.mk. Will beat throw, throw tech and mashed normals.
[*]cr.lp , walkback , cr.mp xx rcf
[/LIST]

Cosmic Heel options on block:

EDIT: CH has changed significantly in AE and 2012. In 2012 you’re only at +1 with a max distance CH (opposed to +3 in Super). We’re now forced to use defensive options, as jumping and pressuring can get you taged. Only throwing can still work as a frame trap after a perfect CH.

CH options on block

Spoiler

[LIST]
[]CH, throw
[
]CH, backdash
[]CH, just block and react
[
]CH, Backflip to bait reversal happy players
[/LIST]

Option Select

Option Selects mostly abuses the “Hit freeze”. If you touch your opponent with an attack (no matter if hit or block) the game “freezes” for a few frames. In this period your input will not do anything and get “eaten up” by the game. Options Selects are puting inputs in this window, resulting that nothing extra happens when you touch your opponent, but if you input a move during that exact time and you do not touch your opponent, this move will come out.

Throw Tech after CH

Spoiler

When you input a throw on the last recovery frames of the CH, you’re getting an option select. When your opponent goes for a throw, you will tech automatically, otherwise you can just block.

cr.lp (df.hk or cr.hk), cr.lp/cr.mp

Spoiler

This is an intermediate-skill option select that will pressure backdashes and move you forward when you are attacking with cr.lp and wiff. The trick is to do the cr.lp > cr.lp/mp link and squeeze a df.hk or cr.hk input inbetween the link at the right spot (about in the middle).

If the first cr.lp is blocked, the next cr.lp will come out and you can go for a kara throw afterwords
If the first cr.lp hits, the next cr.lp should hit and you can react to follow up with cr.mp into ex-fba
If the first cr.lp wiffs, your choice of df.hk (shorter recovery) or cr.hk (faster startup) will come out and catch some backdashes or avoid something like an ex-headstomp.

cr.lp into cr.mp alone (and even just a cl.hp) might automatically catch backdashing, but being able to attempt a knockdown or juggle OS can be situationally valuable. It also forces the opponent to deal more directly with basic throw/bait pressure. I’ve known about all of this for a while but didn’t want to talk about it before I could actually start using it.

cr.lp (df.hk), cr.lp/cr.mp more in-depth (Thanks to Meteo2

Spoiler

Option Select: meaty cr.LP OS with perfect df.HK (Cosmic Heel)
Ok, so you know the option select where if your cr.LP wiffs then a df.HK comes out? Often it seems pretty choppy and hard if not impossible to make work, so many of us have chosen to just use cr.LP OS’d with cr.HK instead since its always pretty reliable. However, wouldn’t you rather punish that backdash with a big, sexy, df.HK into much bigger damage? Well I wanted to push the limits of this OS and see if you did a perfect meaty cr.LP (hitting only on the second attack frame) from point blank and OSing the df.HK on the first frame possible, who it would catch…

“Meaty Test” shows if my cr.LP to cr.HP combo worked as part of my OS, or if the setup was too early or too late compared to the rest of the cast (therefore ruining the setup’s certainty). The Backdash column shows if the opponent’s wakeup-backdash was hit by the OS df.HK in the corner at point blank and in the open at mid-screen. Any time the df.HK was blocked post-backdash in the open, it was near the tip and not punishable by 3-frame moves (although there may still may have been frame disadvantage).

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/9641/osmcrlpperfectdfhk.png

To make sure my cr.LP was meaty, with the OS I used the combo cr.LP into cr.HP which only works (besides on counterhit) as a meaty. By looking at the frame data I figured a meaty cr.LP’s recovery upon the opponent’s wakeup was 1+8 plus the startup of df.HK (+14) should be able to catch at best any backdash that lasted 23 frames or longer. I tried several times until I started catching 23-frame backdashes! 23 frames is the best this setup can do, and for every frame your opponent’s backdash is longer, this setup becomes that much more easy (won’t require a meaty or perfect df.HK).

Surprisingly, this test blew away some of my previous notions about various character’s wakeup times. I set up my OS with a point-blank cr.HK, and I’ve noted the characters that seemed to wake up at times unlike the rest. Because none of those chars had an exact 23-frame backdash, I can not be sure if I have attained a perfect df.HK on them - but I marked what I suspected was the case.

Here is a list of all characters’ backdash duration in AE. Any character with a dash 22 Frames or faster cannot be hit by this setup, unless you use the faster-recovery far.st.LK instead of cr.LP (which gives you one extra frame of df.HK speed). For every frame after 22/23 that an opponent’s backdash lasts, that is an extra frame of leniency where you don’t have to be perfect on all aspects of the OS. Note that cr.MK is only frame frame slower than cr.LP in recovery, and can be used to possibly catch backdashes that last 24+ frames.

cr.lp/lk xx lp.RCF (CH / cr.HK)

Spoiler

cr.lp/lk xx lp.RCF (CH / cr.HK) will only cancel if cr.lp connects if it doesn’t the RCF input will be ingnored and HK will outrpioritise LP giving a slide or a cosmic heel.

on block it is a true block string, it generates very decent meter, on whiff you stuff the backdash. it requires a lot of charge though.

CH --> Scarlet Terror follow ups (quick stand)

When you hit the CH, ST Combo, during the ST, the camera moves away from the ground (& Vega) and focuses on the opponent. This leads to somenice shenanigans.

CH --> Scarlet Terror follow ups

Spoiler

[LIST]
[]Whiff another HK ST and follow up with a cr.mk for a meaty
[
]Immediatly charge a focus attack, if our opponent quick stand, you can hit him with a lvl 3 FA.
[]Immediatly slide, this will cross the opponent up and you can hit him with a EX FBA or even a cross EX FBA. Also you can cl.HP to beat throw tech attempts.
[
]Delay a slide for a fake cross up, same follow ups as above
[*]After CH, ST, whiff a cr.MK and jump in with a late j.HP. Safe to all reversals > 4 frames (not shoryuken :frowning: )
[/LIST]

j.HP Cross-Up

j.HP Cross-Up

Spoiler

So, here is the thing. After an Izuna Drop, dash forward, wait a split of second, then ji.HK. It will cross up Juri and Bison.
I notice that if you choose ji.HP it will cross up on much more as you can see below.

Oh, and it safe jump the big guys like T.Hawk and Rufus without losing your charge, you land on the same side as you jumped. Not a big deal but heh

EDIT:
Well, this post is all messed up because I am testing the stuffs right now, so bear with me with the mess and … Oh, I don’t care, just read if you wanna know the set ups.
Adon: Works with HP. He can’t do shit about it. Reversals whiff. Holding only down will make the HP whiff.
Blanka: Works with HP. His reversals will eat you alive. Neutral stick and only holding down will make the HP whiff.
El Fuerte: Works with HP. Only way to avoid it is doing absolutely nothing on wake up. The HP will whiff, but if he blocks it cross up or his reversals whiff.
Juri: Works with HP and HK. Can only reversal with Super. Pinwheels will whiff. Neutral position still gets hit by the HP/HK. But holding just down make it whiff.
Bison: Works with HP and HK. Holding the stick neutral or just down will make the HP whiff.
Hakan: Works with HP. He has no way to deal with the mighty claw but U2.
Guy: Works with HP. It cross up and his reversals whiff. Holding the stick neutral or just down will make the HP whiff.
Cody: Works with HP. Pretty much anything he tries but blocking will fuck you up.
Zangief: Works with HP. But neutral stick and Lariats will destroy Vega.

Summary: Use it on Hakan like there is no tomorrow when he does not have U2 ready. And use on Adon, Guy, Jury and El Fuerte unless you think that they know the match up to the point of holding only down to avoid a jump in attack… well, they won’t, just use it.

Bison has that nasty teleport, you can try to buffer the charge of EX FBA while you jump and try to get him with that as soon as you land, but I dont know if its worth using the Izuda Drop knockdown to try this, it requires more testing (actually didn’t even tested this EX FBA to catch the teleport, but it must work).

EX FBA Cross-Ups

EX FBA Cross-Ups (THANKS TO METEO)

Spoiler

When your opponent is getting off the ground from a knockdown, you can launch an Ex.FBA that goes past them and hits their back as they get up. If you position and time this right (something hard to do), it crosses them up instantly in a way that is equally hard to defend against. Most of you know about this.

However, I’ve done some testing and even started putting together some data on ways to do it. Small variations in your position and timing can make all the difference in whether a crossup is possible in a given situation. Done right, it is possible to always give yourself a chance cross up every character.

One of the best situations to attempt an instant Ex.FBA crossup is after an Izuna Drop, because the relative character positions are always the same at mid-screen. You can use this starting point to use particular moves that always put you at a particular spacing before the crossup attempt.

You can wait right after the Izuna and then attempt the instant crossup, or you can wiff a move like cr.HK when they are still on the ground to keep your charge while moving closer by a precise amount. The choice you make in setting up your position sometimes matters in regards to whether or not an instant crossup is possible.

Each “frame” in this data represents a precise 1-frame timing after the Izuna Drop in which an instant Ex.FBA crossup might be possible. There doesn’t seem to be any move you can wiff that puts you exactly at the timing you need to launch, so it still requires waiting and timing to the exact instant you need. However, many characters share the exact same timing while others require you to launch an instant sooner or later. This data gives you a particular setup and then shows you what timings cause the attack to crossup, wiff, or get blocked. Frame A represents attacking relatively early and Frame E represents attacking relatively late. Reversals by the opponent tend to always wiff in the wrong direction since Vega is flying past their middle, even when your timing is off by a frame or two.

[Spoiler=Izuna Drop, then no follow up moves before the Ex.FBA]
Izuna Drop, then no follow up moves before the Ex.FBA
Small characters might avoid this setup by blocking low. Such as: Yun, Yang

http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/4921/izunaexfba.png

Setups with more than 1 Frame of opportunity:
Seth (2 Frames)
T.Hawk (2 Frames)
Zangief (2 Frames)

Izuna Drop, then cr.HK to move closer before the Ex.FBA

Spoiler

http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/2739/izunacrhkexfba.png

Setups with more than 1 Frame of opportunity:
Gouken (3 Frames)
Honda (2 Frames)
Juri (2 Frames)
Rose (2 Frames)
Rufus (2 Frames)
Sakura (2 Frames)
T. Hawk (2 Frames)
Zangief (2 Frames)

Izuna Drop, then df.HK (Cosmic Heel) to move closer before the Ex.FBA

Spoiler

[edit] df.HK and Ex.FBA must be back-to-back, so delay the df.HK not the Ex.FBA

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/2223/izunadfhkexfba.png

Setups with more than 1 Frame of opportunity:
Abel (2 Frames)
Guile (2 Frames)
Seth (2 Frames)
T. Hawk (2 Frames)

Izuna Drop, then HK.ST (HK Scarlet Terror) to move closer before the Ex.FBA

Spoiler

http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/1148/izunahkstexfba.png

Setups with more than 1 Frame of opportunity:
(none)

Double cr.MK

Spoiler

Just found out that Izuna droping Seth, wiff 2 cr.mk, ex fba again is a damn good way to time your cross up.
Didnt tested with gief or hawk, but it has to work.
It needs more testing, but now we have pretty much a set up that will allow to cross up EX FBA on 2/3 of the cast.

Backthrow, cr.MK (TO BE TESTED FOR AE cr.MK?

Spoiler

After backthrow , whiff c.mk and do the EX-FBA. (Does not work if u throw them in or from the corner, due to spacing reasons!)

Like all cross up EX-FBA set ups the timing is not very easy, but after practicing (especially the time when u can do the c.mk, wich is sooner than it seems) it is actually quite reliable against the characters it works against and it has more chance to be late than early in my experience, wich is more desirable because whiffing (being early) is never a succes and it being late might catch someone who was actually blocking cross up.
You can use c.lp and c.lk too if it gets you the timing right more often, but c.mk fits it more perfectly IMO. c.mp seems to be too slow.

On to the character list!:

Works on:

Abel
Balrog
Dee Jay
Dudley
Fei Long
Gouken
Guile
Hakan
Makoto
M.Bison
Rose
Rufus
Seth
T-Hawk
Vega
Yang
Zangief

Whiffs on:
The rest

Most characters (like the shoto’s etc) that are not on the list will get hit cross up if they block standing, but that makes it useless IMO so i did not bother to test that exactly

Forward Throw

Spoiler

Cross setup after forward throw.After you throw the opponent hold down,as soon as vega takes his neutral crouching stance
execute ex-FBA.It will crossup 23/39 members of the cast.

Doesn’t work due to hitbox reasons(most of them make FBA whiff if they wake up crouching) on:
Fuerte,Blanka,Adon,Yun,Juri,Chun li,Cody,Guy,Yang,Makoto,Ibuki,Honda(i was really hoping that it would work on this bastard)
Due to later wake up timing it misses against Sagat,Dhalsim,Vega,Hakan. Could be possible on these 4 though with a slight delay
at the execution of ex-FBA.

[/details]

Cross-Up U1

2nd Hit Cross-Up

Spoiler

YT LINK!!!
Works on the first frame after a mid-screen forward grab on all characters except:
Adon
Blanka (works if you delay by 1 frame)
Dhalsim
Hakan
Sagat (works if you delay by 1 frame)
Claw (works if you delay by 1 frame)

Corpse Hop Shenanigans

Vegas Corpse Hop is when you jump over a downed enemy with CH or PoM. A perfect setup for this is after an Izuna Drop, dash forward and CH.

Corpse Hop Shenanigans

Spoiler

After corpse hop (thanks to Tiger Claw for listing most of them)
[LIST]
[]throw
[
]tick throw
[]cr.LK xx EX FBA
[
]cr.MK, cr.MP xx EX FBA (hit-confirm and beats throw (techs))
[]back dash then CH
[
]back flip for baiting reversals
[]jump back fierce.
[
]cl.HP BNB
[/LIST]

Piece of Mercury Follow-Ups

Assuming PoM was hitting the opponent on the first active frame, we have 0 frame advantage on hit and -4 on block. Therefore the safest option is always blocking afterwards and you need good reflexes to see if it hit before you go for something afterwards!

Piece of Mercury Follow-Ups

Spoiler

After corpse hop (thanks to Tiger Claw for listing most of them)
[LIST]
[]throw
[
]cr.LK xx EX FBA
[/LIST]

Info to generate setups yourself

Frame Stuff (THANKS TO METEO)

Spoiler

How many frames faster does Vega recover after these knockdowns?
Forward Throw: 25 frames to move before your opponent
Back Throw: 36 frames faster
Izuna Drop: 59 frames faster
Scarlet Terror: variable
cr.HK: variable

How long do your wiffed positioning moves last?
forward.dash takes up 20 frames total
df.HK takes up 32 frames total
df.MK takes up 35 frames total
cr.HK takes up 37 frames total
Scarlet Terror (any) takes up 39 frames
forward.jump takes up 43 frames
LP.RCF takes up 50 frames

How fast do some common attacks start up in?
f/b.throw grabs on frame 3 (2 attack frames)
kara.f/b.throw grabs on frame 4 (2 attack frames)
cr.LP and cr.MP hit on frame 4 (2 attack frames)
st.HK hits on frame 4 (2 then immediately another 2 for the second part)
st.far.LK hits on frame 5 (2 attack frames)
cr.MK hits on frame 6 (3 attack frames)
st.close.HP hits on frame 9 (3, then another 3 after 7 non-attack frames)
LP.RCF hits on frame 9 (9, then another 4 after 7 non-attack frames)
EX.FBA hits on frame 9 (lasts until wall)
jumpback.HP hits on frame 10 (hits on frame 5 if already airborn)
df.HK hits on frame 14 (5 attack frames)
df.MK hits on frame 20 (3 attack frames)

Sheet for character-specific Stuff

Sheet for character-specific Stuff

Spoiler

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/8594/screenshot05w.png

This is coming along very well. Thx!

you can also LP version RCF for a sneaky crossunder… which unlike slide, builds meter

Nice topic wwmajin- I’ve been lurking this forum for long time and this is the first time I see Ch ST quick stand follow ups, very helpful indeed

You might as well add this one: ( After a knockdown with c.hk whiff a c.lp/c.mp - i don’t recall because it’s hard to land - you can crossup EX FBA) very strict timing .

Hey people,

A safe jump I use always is ch to st then whiff c.mk immediately after the opponent is in the air then jump with late fierce. If the opponent quick get up then you can block the ultra depending on the character like cammy u1 and also her dp. If you connect with the late fierce then this is when shit gets serious becaues you can do the 6-hit combo or do fierce into splendid claw which is a 4-hit combo. But for that to work you have to have timing and IMMEDIATELY charge down back after you jump then hit confirm fierce into u2.

Also, you can nuetral jump then do late round house just before you touch the ground and combo into splendid claw on opponent.

I have 3 three ex barcelona cross up set ups with one that only works in the corner. but lunch is over peace.

Thx for the extra info Luger! :tup:

nice thread good sir!

Yes, but I think the recovery of the LP RCF is to long to do anything effective after it. What would you recommend?

Thank you!

The problem with any possible setup after slide is, that it has 13 active frames and you can never know exactly on which frame you hit the opponent, therefore your recovery and his get up time varies, making it pretty hard to do any setups consistantly.

Thanks Luger for your input would really appreciate more :). I tried your save jump setup, got it to work for reverals with 4 frames (Ken MP SRK, Guile Flash Kick…), but not 3 frames :frowning:

Will add this to the post, along with some other stuff from me…

it doesnt put you in an offensive situiation… (situitational though… you can condition them not to do reversals and make it become offensive). but it does put you in a situitation where you can react to anything your opponent does, so it’s safe for you, and it builds meter. it’s also something i personally use to mix up my oki, because it’s like the LK version ST after CH to sweep. it just barely crosses over so it’s hard to block unless you see it coming.

CH to sweep is another good Oki set up because it’s an untechable kd. you can then use corpse hopping gimmicks to comfuse your opponent on which way to block

frame traps on block (beats 3-frame normals, non-invuln specials, and jump-outs after the first move is blocked):

cr.mk - cr.lp (hit confirm into combo) or kara throw
far.lk - cr.lp (hit confirm into combo) or kara throw
cr.lp - throw
late df.hk - (depending on how far/late): cr.lp or throw

When you see a RCF hit, you are also provided with a frame trap in which you may cr.lp or cr.mp depending on the distance

Today I present you I think a pretty unique feature:

I took some time today to bring you Vega’s Hitbox pictures and animations frame by frame from the first to the last active frame!
I “only” did his normals, but if I get positive responses I will do his specials as well…

Enjoy!

Awesome job with the hitbox animations! Thank you!

Here’s a thread with some good info about option selects for Vega : http://shoryuken.com/f264/vega-option-selects-231097/

I have some info to add for safe jumps and frame traps, but I gotta run so I’ll do it later when I have time. Good stuff Majin!

CH + 4 framer is more a frame trap than a mixup it is not to be used as BnB in high level play.
CH + backflip is a bait trap more than a mixup it is not to be used as bnb in high level play.

a mixup is

1 . guess what I am going to do right …NOW
2 . oups wrong guess i kick you arse and score some major advantage (200+ damage, or a knockdown, or a massive amount of terrain)
3. hehe nice guess you got me but he did not cost me much.

lets break things up.

Noobie level mixup with CH is

A. CH + grab
B. CH + four framer
C. CH + block and punish noobish reversal HP blazing flashy shoryuken.

it is easy on vega 's side and at noob level difficult on the other or dangerous. it is agreat mix up.

It stops to be a mix up when the guy on the other side has a one tool that beats or reset everything. To achieve that he can do a late crouch tech or better a standing late tech/grab.

Now from that point on we could say it is still a mix up if we had safe options to force the other guy into taking more risks than we do.

But we don’t

We can punish late stand tech with a bunch of moves but to do that we need to guess, requires spot on execution and we need to commit into things that are also heavily punishable.

So yes we can force the other guy to gamble, but we have to gamble too, and the things at stake really account for something , on both sides.

In the end the statistical winner of these gamble is going to be the one that adapts the fastest and that has the best execution.

At high level play

You will not use CH as a mix up starter.

you ll use CH as a counter poke,
As a punishment starter,
As a “double or quit” gambling move (not in vanilla),
To close distance and gain terrain.
To change the fighting range.
If you play a high risk high reward type of oponnent you might even want to poke with it, but doing it against a cautious guy is just outright gambling.

Unfortunately there is nothing very intresting statistically that vega can do with +3 of frame advance at point blank range if we are not willing to gamble a big chunk of life to get a big chunk of the other guy’s.

Thanks for the link Deuy, I will add parts of Tatsu’s post to this thread.

And thanks, I appreciate every kind of input.

@Ajunta: Yes, you’re right, mixup is the wrong term, I will edit it to “CH options on block”. That CH is not a “real” mixup starter should be very obvious, but noneoftheless people should know that there are other options than just actively throwing after a blocked CH, because thats what I see 90% of the time.

And that anything other than block and throw teching is a risk in this game should also be obvious because the risk of getting an uppercut to the face is almost always there in this game, no matter what mixup or frame trap.

This is looking great! It would be nice if someone cleaned up the match up thread too, but since I’m not too much of an expert I’d leave that to someone else :stuck_out_tongue:

joz is working on that eddie. when it gets back it’ll head to saki for posting

on another note…

what’s the one pedo was talking about that was perfect setup for crossover EX FBA?

was it ST whiff ST then EXFBA?