Aww that definitely sounds like they mean +0 from max range - which is bad because even that is hard and therefore risky to space, and with a 4-frame jab you’re still at an additional disadvantage against 3-frame hitters. +1 would have been a more reasonable nerf if they wanted to tone it down but I guess they wanted to ruin it as anything but a punishment/mobility tool. From point blank you’ll now be at what, -4? Eh its kind of looks like it should be punishable at that range anyway. Now it is.
As far as longer startup on Splendid Claw goes, there’s a good chance we might get additional invincibility frames to go along with it, and pros can easily safejump it anyway, but I’m mainly afraid that we could lose punishment/anticipation opportunities from close range. They said the increase was “slight”, but that could mean anything. I hope it still can combo off of funny things like CosmicHeel from the ground, counterhit cr.mk even though it doesn’t matter much in a real match.
I’m excited about a faster cr.mk, and what sounds like a less vulnerable backdash. The rcfs now look a bit more useful. I think overall, Claw is probably getting just a smidgen better and I would take these changes anyway if I had a choice. In any case, I’m still thrilled that cr.mp xx ex-fba works from any distance on any character : )
Claw will be my main no matter what, if he was good enough for you to want to use in vanilla I don’t understand the fit some people are throwing now. Get the fuck out of my forum in that case, you know? Haha, I’ll chase you down and slice you up regardless.
I’m personally not dropping him, he just wont be my “main” main anymore.
I’ve been playing him since Vanilla so him being crappy isnt really the problem, its just the fact that he was fine super but Capcom’s morons smoked some shit and decided to randomly nerf characters that didnt need any changes at all, its a slap in the face thats all, give the dumb characters like Fei BUFFS (and probably Honda, i have a feeling that sumo *** is staying tops in AE) and Nerf characters that are fighting to be considered “viable” like Vega and Fuerte… theyll also probably do some random nerf to Gen too coz thats just how Capcom rolls.
eh, idk why I’m thinking too much into this, I’ll most probably move on to KoFXIII -the BETTER Fighting game- and maybe Mvc3 as well by the time we get this as DLC anyway .
People are blowing the CH nerf out of proportion. If you rely on cosmic heel currently, that’s your problem. It already has a ton of flaws as a “frame trap (which it totally isn’t and never is)” and is now still available to use as a punish. EX RCF and c. mk and backdash buff make up for it in my opinion. I don’t think it makes sense to say “then you don’t know Vega” when YOU guys are the ones who make it seem like CH is his only “frame trap” and that (somehow) poke pressure requires meter. No, HIT CONFIRMS require meter, not OFFENSE in general. And think about it, once you DO get a knockdown with meter people are going to be in a lot worse situation than they were before because you can put them right in the corner with frame advantage off of safe jump option select frame traps. The EX RCF buff is going to be great for that.
For the record, CH is NOT a frame trap. A CH after a st. LK has a 12 frame gap. That’s not a frame trap! Teching with normals that are solid pokes like shoto c. mk instead of ALWAYS c. lk >>>>>>>>>>>>>> CH. seriously. I’m pretty sure the way it stands now, I’m going to be using the CH the same way I do now: punish. As it stands I’m already using more poke pressure becuase it’s safer, and leaves Vega in a consistently better position and still nets me good damage and momentum.
Again, i have to say it, but I’m not buying anything you guys are saying, especially the fact that people not agreeing with you have to learn more about Vega. that doesn’t make sense, YOU Guys have to learn that Vega is designed to use poke pressure and that when people choose to block a CH and get thrown you have to figure something else out and that vega has an entire moveset to help you do it.
I don’t see these changes as a nerf. If you guys rely on Cosmic Heel and are telling me I have more to learn, then seriously, keep abusing it and see how far it’ll get you. It’s hardly what I would consider a reliable, or even remotely safe footsie move, but punishing anything out of range on reaction (NOT a c. lk, i’m talking shoryukens, whiffed throws, whiffed TAP) is still going to be what it’s best at.
Seriously, they make the game less cheesy and people complain. Why am I surprised? God forbid, they’re forcing you to mix up Vega’s gameplan and make him more interesting. CH Is so overrated as a “frame trap” and if you guys can’t see that then go ahead and drop him. I highly doubt he’s going to be worse than he currently is. Same pros, same cons. Just different strategies.
lol if you think i picked Vega only because i liked how he looked. I picked him up because I liked his flow. The way his normals and specials interacted with one another. In short I liked his moveset from the get go, not because I wanted to be some “Low Tier Hero”. Kouryuu summed it up pretty nicely. ANd if that’s how you feel, then ill get consider getting the fuck of you precious forum once AE drops. This forum is already quite dead to begin with.
chances are i am. If i have to relearn my character, I might as well learn other characters. Im already working on Sagat full time, and when Yang drops ill probably use him as well.
Im not advocating its a frame trap. My trap of choice is st.lk - cr.mk or cr.lp - cst.hp - CH or cr.mk - CH. CH its a combination tool. Mixing it up with what’s a stagnant poke pressure game is what makes CH heel so good. He counter poked well i did CH you get hit now. You didn’t well im +2 or +3 now. And i can continue. You want to block fine ill use cr.mk xx mp/hp.RCF. Still afraid of pushing buttons ill start kara throwing and jumping in. What this you want to walk back? Ill abuse cr.mk (which is the normal i base my entire game of).
Dude are you serious? I posted this earlier in the thread:
A properly spaced (not close range) blocked CH can leave you at +3 advantage, even +2 if you aren’t perfect. Meaty CH can do the same thing. How is that not a frame trap? Your 4 frame cr jab/cr mp will beat any throw or normal…how is that not a frame trap again? Now you are even at best or -4 at worst (100% guaranteed huge punish for close CH), if the translation was correct about the blocked tip bit. How can you not consider that HUGE for Vega?
I think that’s pretty unlikely even with just 1 or 2 frames of startup added, I think both of those might be 1 or 2 frame combos, not positive. Also, count on late j HP or J RH to U2 not comboing anymore (wasn’t too useful anyway).
this is why I think post cosmic heel frame traps are useless:
because any time you can safely cosmic heel, like a meaty, you can also safe jump. so why cosmic heel. seriously, answer that question. Why have +3 and measly jab combos when you can have like +11 and frame trap with close fierce? so much safer, much higher dividend, and way easier links on top of it.
Otherwise, when are you getting away with perfectly spaced cosmic heels? for one thing, people move. for another, people have fucked up crouch hitboxes. for another, cosmic heel has way too long a start up for spacing a poke like that be considered remotely realistic.
It doesn’t happen, which is why I don’t even think about using post cosmic heel frame traps. it doesn’t make any sense. And am I to believe people are nailing considerably difficult 1 frame link EX FBA hit confirms when they aren’t using much easier close fierce frame traps?
Seriously, what situations are you guys finding other than meaty cosmic heels (which i just said are vastly inferior to safe jump option selects) for a perfectly spaced, +3 cosmic heel? guaranteed, you guys will tell me something, and I’ll be able to think of why it’s such a horrible idea in a second.
The only thing I can think about is Cosmic Heel after c. mk and c. mp (and this doesn’t even work on all characters) becuase it hits on the last frame. But again, i’m just gonna reiterate, throwing out a move like that expecting it to be perfectly spaced and timed still isn’t even a remotely tight maneuver, gets beat on start up by a lot of shit, and can be backed up out of and jumped over, whatever. You guys realize that, in place of the kind of links and reckless gameplay you’re proposing, you can basically play Vega at his strongest by (i remember pedo said this) using his so called “stagnant” poke pressure? vega has BETTER footsies than just about everyone, the only character I can think of who Vega can’t march into the corner is Chun but she also can’t do the same to him. Cosmic heel is a highly, highly situational move and I’m pretty sure you guys are just getting away with it far too much.
You even said it. It’s incredibly risky even as it is now. It’s just not something that works all the time, and whiffed cosmic heels cause people are backing up is just going to get you murdered. And otherwise, if people stay put, you’re not frame trapping them after, are you? It’s so situational as to, in my opinion, be completely unrealistic.
EDIT: For the record, Koryuu, as far as I can gather from his post, is advocating using CH as a frame trap, and I took that to mean that it beats poorly spaced c.lk. All that is is footsies and I already said that that doesn’t really happen because many many characters have normals that can be used to tech that poke CH out of start up. And if he means frame trapping post Cosmic Heel, well I just said why that’s a bad idea.
Looking at the frame data:
Cosmic heel has a 14 frame recovery.
Safe jumps have a 3 frame recovery.
Cosmic heel doesn’t protect you from TU. Doesn’t protect you from Headbutts. Doesn’t protect you from Chicken Wing. Doesn’t protect you from this, that, basically every single incinvible reversal.
Safe jump protects you from everything but EX Grabs and SRK’s (for SRK’s I use empty jump OS tech when I hit the ground). So seriously, if you guys think CH’s frame trap capability being gone is a drastic change to Vega, all I can say is, I’m seriously not the one who “has a LOT to learn” about Vega. You guys are using, and advocating, what is essentially a total shenanigan. Just use safe jump option selects, they’re a million times better than any cosmic heel.
You said very forcefully that Cosmic Heel is NOT a frame trap and “never is” and then went on to say that we have things to learn about Vega and you can’t take what we are saying seriously. I pointed out how Cosmic Heel IS a frame trap and a good one.
Now it just sounds like you’re trying to cover up your mistake by saying it’s hard to do. Everyone is talking about this info like it’s high level play, why disregard Cosmic Heel spacing as too advanced? Your poke pressure among other things can keep people from moving around. I don’t claim to be a great Vega or as good as you, but the spacing isn’t THAT hard. You can set it up off a forward throw pretty easily, as well as cr mk. Even ending up +2 or +1 is advantagous.
You can use Cosmic Heel in tons of situations where you can’t or shouldn’t jump. Even when you knock someone down, it’s not always possible to safe jump. Why should you use ONLY safe jumps and cl HP traps or ONLY CH traps? Why not use both as a situation dictates?
Why does cl fierce trap come into this again? You don’t have to do any 1 frame links to EX FBA, you can just hit with a normal. If you are good at hit confirming do cr lp cr mp ex fba, which shouldn’t be hard if you are at the level of play that most of this theory fighter revolves around.
CH puts you in an unfavorable position against the majority of the characters in the game.
I might use it ONCE during an entire match, after making sure I understand how the opponent is crouch-teching or if the opponent is pushing buttons under pressure.
By the way, I respect everyone’s opinions here. I’m just arguing my points because I believe they are valid too. I’ll still play Vega regardless and will adapt my playstyle as it’s necessary in AE.
Look, with regard to the first bit of your post, allow me to clarify.
I’ve never thought of post-CH frame traps as realistic for several reasons already stated, so when people say frame trap CH I am confused. Initially I just assumed people meant forcing an opponent to whiff a c. lk and punishing the recovery window, as it has something to do with frames. Obviously I was wrong, but considering that is one of my intended uses for CH, I got the wrong idea. I was mistaken.
And I’m not saying it’s hard to do. I’m saying it’s unrealistic. Like I said, there aren’t set ups for a CH on the ground that are going to RELIABLY get you a perfectly spaced CH. They don’t exist. The start up is way too long, hitboxes factor in, frames factor in, a lot factors in, spacing is obviously important, but with so many factors that work against getting a cosmic heel to work there, I’m basically going to forget about it.
Name me some situations where a meaty CH is preferable to the diversity of having 11 frames where you are freely capable of moving around and doing anything. When you get a scarlet terror knockdown, whiff c. mp if they tech it’s a safe jump, if not I usually just eyeball the next jump and safe jump them again with a nj rh. EX FBA should be obvious, I’m going to safe jump every time. Those are your two most common knockdowns. Sweep I’m not so sure about because I connect with them sparingly and usually just opt for a tick pressure. (BTW meaty c. mk’s and st. lk’s net you similar frame advantage to a meaty CH without having to deal with CH’s much longer recovery, meaning you can do safe st. lk’s and c. mk’s to some, on top of the fact that some reversals get beat by low moves). Back throw, I usually position myself for footsies. Forward throw, you can dash in and mixup with kara throw and st. lk combos, and option select the st. lk with an additional sweep against certain characters’ backdashes.
The thing is, you’re arguing as the situation dictates. Here’s my argument: a frame trap mixed up with a throw after a safe jump is always going to be a more powerful mixup than a meaty cosmic heel, simply because of that massive frame advantage. That’s the only time where you CAN frame trap INTO a cosmic heel. Not only that, but the dividend of having combos available to you that allow you to reset the situation and protect you if the opponent chooses to reversal because that will always be a risk if you choose to CH is infinitely more preferable to me than a meaty CH and the hard links that come after.
As for your last point about close fierce, again, I’m gonna have to say a couple things. EX FBA’s are safe against, very, very few characters. Everyone can punish them, most simply be jumping to the wall you’re going to after they are forced to block and smacking you. Others, simply be virtue of being good against the comedown aspect of FBA. So you’re forced to hit confirm, to not do so is reckless and unsafe. you’re relying on hard links. And if, like you said, you can just hit with a normal, first of all, your damage options are pretty pathetic. St. RH nets you 100 damage but is unsafe on block, especially at point blank range, and c. mp hits for 70. Anything else is too slow to frame trap, like c. mk and close fierce. When you safe jump someone, you have a SAFE frame trap into close fierce THAT, if blocked, puts you in a favorable counter poking position AND helps you hit confirm, becuase I’m certainly not going to advocate using random EX FBA hits just because you have a frame trap. That link is easier, and this is why I’m bringing this up: if you guys are first of all, relying on what is (i reiterate) a shenanigan, unless you are one of a select few who can reliably hit confirm into c. mp off of a couple c. jabs, (or one, and again, that’s pretty hard), then why not use something so much easier to pull off and safer, and what leaves you in a better position every time?
I understand that it’s good to mix your game up, but again, I’m gonna have to say that against characters who you can safe jump every time, there’s literally no reason why you would not want to safe jump, and simply choose different options after. CH is always going to be far more unsafe than safe jumps and your options after are incredibly limited compared to what you can do after a safe jump. This is why I’m advocating NOT using CH frame traps and why I’m advocating safe jumping in every situation instead.
EDIT: and I’m not even mentioning option selects with KKK or Sweep, (or, i have to look into this more though, cosmic heel [and those will still exist even with the nerf]) which destroy a couple characters.
Yeah it’s cool, I dont mean to come across as antagonistic or anything. I just like discussing this stuff and I usually end up learning from it too.
I don’t disagree about your safe jump reasoning, I also would prefer the advantages of a safe jump situation over a CH trap. But I wasn’t really considering CH trap to be used in the place of safe jumps, rather in situations where you shouldn’t be jumping in at all, and in other areas of footsies. Yeah it can be situational and difficult to space correctly but I think to be on the highest level you can and should be utilizing it in conjuction with other tools. And the current CH is something I’ll definitely miss in AE.
Well, I at this point I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. We both know that safe jumps are better when they’re there, but I simply opt for safer pokes than the lengthiness of CH, and I generally move around a lot, and move forward a lot. I find that if I use the CH right away, even though I tech since I’m using OS I lose a lot of momentum and then have to sort of move around what they’re doing next, whereas if I’m poking sparingly and punishing every whiff and either shutting down air attacks or avoiding them, I can march them to the corner, and ultimately, my gameplan revolves around putting people in the corner because it makes everything Vega does better. Plus, I can react better, and generally, I want to have a more solid footsie game and save my mixups for the corner or untechable knockdowns.
I think, in broader terms, the significance of this change just means that Vega’s long term offense will be better, so when he gets knockdowns he’ll start comebacks right away, but to do this needs meter (for EX RCF too), and at this point, getting big damage is helped a lot by CH in conjunction with a currently strong throw game. His short term offense is better now, but long term offense will be better, so I think Vega might be a bit of a character like Rufus, not so good in the first round, but once he gets a good EX stock going, he’ll mess people up hardcore. When it comes to getting that lifelead back from people, when I think about it I still think he can do it because c. mk is so damn fast now. I really am on board with these changes and think Vega got more good than he did bad.
It doesn’t make much sense to me why c. hk got nerfed and ultra as well, but that’s fine. C. MP damage nerf just means there’s (much) more of an incentive to use godly c. mk, same goes for the CH nerf.
If it where not for Cosmic Heel, Vega’s pressure game wouldnt win him anything. Oh i guessed right but i was standing i guess ill just follow up with cr.mp and leave it at that. If Cosmic Heel wasnt at such + frames all Vega could do to pressure is kara-throw and st.lk. CH shouldnt be used in footsies thats a given, unless you know that he is going to push something. But when pressuring somebody with a barrage, especially in the corner those +frames count a lot. CH is what SK is to Bison it allows him to pressure better.
I still honestly don’t think that it’s possible to reliably get perfectly spaced cosmic heels against any character that doesn’t have ass footsies like Sagat and Dee jay. Even then if I can safely use more reliable and less risky offense with pokes, I’m going to do that. You always have been able to do that, soon Vega will be better at it. Yeah you need meter for hit confirms, but for one thing, Vega spends all his meter on EX FBA anyways, and in my opinion c. mk c. mp’s 140 damage is enough for me. Between overhead and c. mk, and Vega’s walk speed, I have everything I need to mix up between forcing people to crouch or walk back, and bait everything from out of range and still punish with cosmic heel.
I think all I am arguing for against you guys is that Cosmic Heel is not as safe nor as reliable as you think it is, and I don’t think getting perfectly spaced Cosmic Heels is reliable enough to justify using it as a staple of your poking, or footsie game. I save it for highly situational punishes, and normally I’m always going to do a c. lk OS tech cause it’s the safest thing to do anyways.
after playing a bit more recently I would have liked to see his over head get some + frames on both block and hit. Unless I space that thing well I invite dp - ultra from sagat or combo into super from rose.
I use them as examples cuz the people I play most often offline use those characters.
His over head needs buffs. But it’s too late for that. Whatever, most people here on the vega forums are going to play him anyway because for the most part we all like him.
I beg to differ. I think this match displays the reliability and uses of CH frame trap perfectly. I think it is better than you think, although… it does not replace all his other necessary skills. When you make CH reliable it is really very powerful.
[media=youtube]dsuUpqVUUkI[/media]
I think this video demonstrates a lot of CH uses on wakeup.
[media=youtube]4snt5Tys1S8[/media]
CH, if used right can be tricky on wakeup, cuz you can corpsehop over your opponent with it and choose to do different moves or use it meaty. At 1:50 I think the meaty CH is demonstrated well in the video above.
And yes I can (or rather I used to be able to) reliably combo from the cr lp so it was a reliable strategy in that aspect. Also I have calculated certain distances and mixups that made it reliable as a frame trap, like after a cl HP and max distance lk which is demonstrated in the first video. This led for great mixups such as dashing in and using cl hp x cr mp x ex fba.
There were a couple of problems with CH that I hoped that they would fix and it looks like they went the opposite direction with it, so w/e.
Not being able to get close like that while attacking and being at an advantage for doing so (Much like the Bison lk sc) is a huge tool that has been taken away.
@ Graphf, buffing POM or his forward dash (18 frames) would have been nice. If his forward dash was 18 frames… that would have been really good with 6 frame cr mk which is probably why they didn’t buff his forward dash.
There he is, I thought you might chime in Alex really shows the effectiveness of CH frame traps, I think you were the first one that really got me thinking about how to use CH that way. That Vega Tricks video is sick (although I don’t think I’m man enough to cl hp, dash in, cl hp).
Regarding POM overhead, I can easily see why they wouldn’t buff it. It has awesome range for an overhead, great distance for use with cr mk/CH/kara throw or slide mixups. I think it’s a good trade off for less than stellar frame data. Also if you’ve spaced it from max range and it connects, you can use it like a frame trap as well.
I don’t know if it’s been mentioned, but I feel that vega should have a jumping normal that crosses up all characters. It just seems unwarranted that he doesn’t have one.
Alex really shows the effectiveness of CH frame traps, I think you were the first one that really got me thinking about how to use CH that way. That Vega Tricks video is sick (although I don’t think I’m man enough to cl hp, dash in, cl hp).