Some of you guys take this “Vega’s screwed up worse than ever thing” to a whole new level.
You are all aware since the AE nerf/buff updates that a lot of SRK people are whining right? Even the Fei Long players are a little disappointed and the Ryu players are giving mixed responses. Viper players have nearly given up and she didn’t receive any confirmed nerfs.
You don’t even know how badly Cosmic Heel was effected - you just assume it’s FUBARed and completely dismiss what should be praised as a genuinely strong buff to back dash, Crouching Mk & the tremendously underused EX RCF.
So many of you are bitching for no apparent reason because you’re assuming the worst about numbers, whether its Recovery frames of CH, start up on Ultra 2 or the damage of Cr. MP/Cr. MK. These numbers were not released!
I think some of you are being pessimists because you want to be. Don’t go around SRK thinking only your character lost out in AE.
When loc tests 1st went down and i-frames on ST were a possibility most motha fuckers here were all “we don’t need one! its same as havin a dp, ect”
well lolollololololol we got what we asked for. I bet someone read that shit here and was like…“the community doesn’t want better ST, they say they like a challenge…”
shit what do ya know… vega just got challenged…like mentally challenged. lame as all hell.
Anyway after reading over the changes again and then some posts from our more level headed members (thanks Joz like usual) I’ve come to the conclusion that things might not be as bad as they seem on paper. I suppose we’ll see soon enough but we can adapt and we’ve for damn sure had to deal with worse. One thing I am hoping for is that if EX RCF is to become a viable tool, we seriously need some start up improvement along the lines of Gen’s roll. Not even sure if that’ll happen but time will tell.
Vega will never be as bad as he was in Vanilla, if you played him in Vanilla you have no excuse to stop now.
I don’t understand your point about other character forums complaining and us thinking we are the only ones. I don’t think anyone has said “omg Vega got so shafted while everyone else is making out like bandits… why oh why are we the only ones to get nerfed?!!”. People are expressing disappointment in changes that signifigantly affect Vega’s game. There is nothing pessimistic about treating added frames to core moves (startup on U2 and advantage on blocked CH) as undesireable changes to Vega. Those are detrimental changes, plain and simple, no pessimism needed.
I agree more information is needed and maybe there will even be other buffs that aren’t listed. As the changes are currently listed right now, the bad outweighs the good… and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with telling that like it is.
I know there aren’t any numbers out yet regarding SC’s startup but how do you guys think the uses of it in its current state will fare compared to the AE version of it?
My point is that every character has something bad about them now. How come no one can weigh up the pros and cons for Vega’s match ups versus the other characters? Instead everyone is complaining how the way they play will be ruined based of the changing of numbers, but no one has mentioned other than Jozhear what the buffs will add to Vega’s game. Some users here didn’t even realise that the change to his backdash is a BUFF.
We all know -x frames on block or +y frames to the start up sucks balls, but you can’t really know for sure:
If the change is final.
How much changed there is.
What, if anything it will mean to the character.
The biggest gripe is Cosmic Heel, I understand because it’s one of, if not Vega’s best move. It’s safe, good range, leads to big damage, plays an important frame trap role and it’s only weakness is that it’s slow. So by weakening this attack in some respect people will have to use other parts of Vega’s game.
A lot of people in this thread are saying they’re changing characters, if that isn’t pessimistic what is? If they enjoy the character they should stick to him and find a way to improve him from the player perspective, they might even surprise themselves with EX RCF and Cr. Mk post AE.
Well in its current state, it already has very limited usefullness vs high level play since good players aren’t going to be jumping in unsafely. But it will mean they have to be slightly less safe on your wakeup, even if it’s only by a frame or two. Same thing with using it to autocorrect on crossup, we’ll have to see how many frames are added.
The other big change, will be what you can punish on reaction with Splendid Claw. If even 1 frame is added to start up, I believe you won’t be able to punish Honda’s lp Headbutts on block with it.
As I use it right now, it’s mostly a deterrent for unsafe jumpins and reckless pressure. I land it frequently off of backdashed FA’s which shouldn’t change at all with the update.
It’s also easy to confirm into from CH after juggling a baited airborne move like srk, fp thunder knuckle, or Blanka’s Up Ball, and this may or may not be affected by longer startup.
Yeah Deuy, to be honest I don’t think the added frame or two (hopefully) should affect the use of SC TOO badly since it’s already relatively limited when you’re playing a good player.
Yeah I agree with Dontdotdat, to be changing characters over some changes that are well, not overwhelmingly bad is pretty fickle of them. Anyway you guys, I mean so many people complain about not having a reliable AA or the CH nerf or whatever nerf we’ve recieved… I mean I think Vega has adequate tools to be played exceptionally well by someone.
The thing is, we don’t know what tools he will end up with, because we don’t know how many changes there will be to vega. Looks like we have to give AE vega some time to sink in before we can make educated opinions. I say this in regards to pessimistic and optimistic individuals.
I can’t guarantee that everyone is heard when it comes to this but i’d be reasonably certain the developer blog’s comment section is monitored for feedback. Nothing is set in stone boys, but in my personal opinion Vega came out on top with the current changes if you are assuming the reasonable.
Even when he was gabarge there were players ripping people up left right and center.
Game mechanics Jai. One added frame is a big deal. Sagat LTS is one frame longer on recovery than HTS, that means if Sagat does cr.lp xx LTS that equals a free cr.mp xx EX FBA. One frame is a big deal. Step your mechanic game up son.
Lets look at gief. Right now if you do max range CH or meaty CH and he blocks. you are free to grab him unless he does Ultra or Super. Now if its +2 you cant do shit because he can churn 360+K and he is in the best possible position. There goes pressure. YOu guys are not understanding the severity of what one frame does. In paper and lower level it wont mean shit because of incosistency. In practice and higher level play, it makes all the diffrence.
And why are you being conformist with this non-sense. Hard work means nothing when you have nothing to show for it. You need solid mix ups, and pressure in this game, at least at high level.
I like your enthusiasim, but dont lie to yourself. People ripped people up, but what did Vanilla Vega do? All he had was CH and Kara throw and sub-par normals because of hitbox issues. In super he had fixed normals which allowed better use of RCF pressure and normal pressure, kara-throw, CH, over head. You take out CH and you lose options. Damage output < options. This game is about options, not about damage.
SC is ass and so is BHC. SC is a scrub killer and a killer for those that dont know the match up. Once you know how SC works, which only takes about 10 games if you are tagged by it every game, or you go in training mode for a few minuets its not a threat. Only redeming quality is 15 frames of invul and 8 frame start up.
Good points Pedo, i’m not gonna act like I know frame data or am very familiar with the game’s mechanics. The Gief example really made it clear, as did Deuy’s Honda example.
With that in mind I hope the CH nerf doesn’t stay but if it does, like I said i’m Vega all the way every day bay-bay.
If it does stay, i can guarantee this. Vega’s most powerful normal is going to be cr.mk. Having a low that reaches that far and links to cr.mp or cr.lp - cr.mp is really good during footsies especially on a 6 frame lesh. Even then i dont think it justifies a loss of options.
o.o better than cr.mp? The startup’s a little slower but everything else outside of the range is better. Idk cr.mk’s hitbox but i would imagine it’s pretty good
options my friend. if cr.mk stays +2 on block (Maybe +1 dont remember) you can follow up with Kara throw (space dependent), another cr.mk, cr.lp, cr.mp, CH, or a jump in, and serves as a better frame trap with lp.RCF. At certain spaces if the opponent does a move with no invul frames it gets beat the claw portion lands counts as a counter hit, and you can follow up with cr.mp xx EX FBA. And did i mention it hits low! This is just the surface to.
What does cr.mp do? its a good poke, its a better poke only because its 4 frames faster. But your options are limited. you can use CH frame traps with the space provided, but cr.mk still provides more options and it recovers faster; 2 frames faster and thats a big deal. But it does its job in footsies better but you have limited options.
Cr.mp is Vega’s best poke and will always be Vega’s best poke (though it also depends on how you look at it). There are more ways to work with cr.mk (especially now since it is 6 frames) but the one thing I’m most appreciative of Vega is that he’s the only character with a 4 frame move that reaches as long as it does. Cr.mp is overall the better footsie tool and opens up punishes that no other normal move in the game can do.
And I am most definitely on Duey’s and Pedo’s side on this one. Even a single frame can make or break a move. CH is two frames from becoming useless in most match ups. Same with SC or any move for that matter. Imagine Cr.mp was one frame slower. The move becomes trash. Frames are important.
Anyone can say “suck it up” or “stop complaining” but it’s usually the ones who are most dedicated that have to deal with the constant bullshit that comes up in SF4 (and if you haven’t noticed, this game is full of BS). I couldn’t care less about other character forums and how the players view their buffs/nerfs (though I truly do feel sorry for what happened to Cammy). Granted, I personally don’t want Vega to be broken, but I do wish he was a bit more stronger. Right now, it just seems he’s going to be the same or potentially weaker (depending on how other characters get tweaked). It’s unfortunate.
I think Splendid Claw is a respectable Ultra. It has great invincibility, easily auto-corrects, ok damage (not great), serves as both an AA and an escape option, and it travels nearly fullscreen. Not many characters can punish a blanka ball or honda headbutt with an Ultra. Throw it out on wakeup during a scary Gief crossup situation and it either A) auto-corrects and connects B)removes you from the scary situation completely.
And what does training mode tell the person about how to make SC unthreatening? It tells them to play safe, to play smart. Safely jump in, no more free pressure. Thats an amazing threat for Vega to have, without even activating the Ultra. Splendid Claw is the only thing that discourages free meaties all day on your wakeup.
The trade off is the so-so damage and very limited comboability (usually none). If startup is slowed, even a frame or two, it could easily become trash despite it’s strengths, but I disagree that right now it’s ass
yeah that didnt work last night vs gief…he hopped over 0~2 times and when you did have a charge it wasnt going to land… i wound up going with U1 as a far AA… damn vs a good gief 1 kd = round over
Punishment is nice. It really is, but there are so many ways somebody can continue to meaty pressure. Lets take Sagat. He can meaty you all day with Safe jumps and cr.lk all day and not fear SC. Many characters can do that. Thats what knowing match ups does. you learn to constantly attack and not be in immediate danger. People shouldnt be blatantly jumping in even if the character is free on wake up. If you cant safe jump, then there is a move that allows you to continue attacking and if the opponent reversaled then you are free to punish, if not you continue the flow of the match. That makes SC not that great. Its like Abel’s Breathless. It kills sloppy play.
So in short it stops sloppy play and forces the opponent to find new and, usually better and safe ways to attack on your wake up. Once that happens SC stops being useful or practical unless its used as a punishment tool.
