Vega AE Updates preview

of course ex rcf has a use, it goes through fireballs. before trying to find footsie-oriented ways of using it i’d always just use it to go through a c. mk hadou.

even if you see fireballs at that range and do it, i wouldn’t jump because i’m talking about an instance where you’re close enough that if you tried to jump you’d just eat the fireball. you ex rcf as it passes through you, can usually punish the recovery. it’s if they’re making a gamble to get some pushback. pretty much at c. MK distance which is good. it’s less likely for them to fireball at this range, cause they’d get jumped in on, but i never said it wasn’t situational.

actually pedo i’m pretty sure that, considering it’s not FASTER or going to counter fireballs more effectively, it was intended for a frame trap,

why else would you use a HP RCF frame trap to put people in the corner and do damage? now, you can do it to ppl in the corner and reap actual benefits instead of trying to FADC. And you don’t think I’ll be able to land EX RCF in a match once AE comes out? I’d put some serious money down on that bet. I’m gonna land EX RCF frame traps after jump ins as often as I land kara throws, bank on it. only, i’ll be doing more damage than i do before while again, doing all the other things rcf does.

If I’m gonna be the only vega to use ex rcf frame traps, then so be it. i am PSYCHED for that buff.

also, i have no idea why anyone would be scared of throwing fireballs at vega. what’s he gonna do? EX SHC? and then what? he puts himself in the corner, doesn’t get an untechable knockdown so a MARGINAL pressure game and certainly not enough time to mix up, and he does mediocre damage. Plus, you can’t react to fireballs unless your sitting on your ass at full screen using EX SHC, and again, why would they throw fireballs here? it’s a waste, the only range vega has to work to get into is his c. mp range against shotos. nobody cares if vega is sitting full screen, why would they commit on anying when the threat of barcelonas is always there? if vega’s full screen then yeah fireballs are a bad idea but you’re not getting anything done at full sreen anyways. at poke range, people usually go nuts using fireballs cause, since they don’t have pokes that reach that far (barring c. mk but again, that’s the same as vega’s poke distance. they want to keep vega OUT of that range, cause he’s not going to be able to do damage otherwise) they have to use fireballs to play footsies with vega. then, they jump in. that’s pretty much what you’re forced to deal with. if you think about it, what does vega have that deals with fireballs better than balrog? bison? blanka? fei long? cammy? or, think about this: honda?

edit: I mean, if you’re being kept out of poke range, you’re able to get jumped in on with j. rh but not able to connect with a j. mp yourself. If someone has better answers to fireballs than me, tell me. Cause in all honesty I think Vega has a really tough time dealing with fireballs: the best move to deal with the fireballs keeping you out of poke range is a really well timed sweep, since while it is situational being hella unsafe and all, it’s the only normal you ahve that can cover that distance.

EX RCF is situational as hell, just like ex shc.

EX ST only goes through cancelled fireballs,

and, vega doesn’t have meterless ways of getting around fireballs (especially if they’re being thrown to keep you out of counter poke distance), or a slide that goes under… just pokes. charging has nothing to do with fireballs, considering vega, out of all characters, actually has a really hard time with them. You also can’t focus dash through them, cause vega’s forward dash is so ass.

That’s a full super meter combo with a ton of scaling, I would probably opt to skip the FADC and just jhp > cl.hp x ex rcf > c.mp x ex fba.

But yours would be nice and flashy for show off purposes. In that case if we don’t care about meter or scaling, there’s a ton of unpractical fancy stuff Vega can probably do (on some chars):

j.hp > cl.hp x ex rcf x fadc > c.mk > lk st > ex st

j.hp > cl.hp x ex rcf x fadc > c.mk > st lk > cr lp > cr mp x ex fba

It was pretty painful watching Joz get fb’d to death in CC lol

a fast jump, fast walk speed, ability to punish point blank fireballs, long range normals to force a trade, and a long range air normal? I mean lets see what bison has

bison; shitty jump, great walk speed, amazing forward dash. HIs jump greatly hurt his ability to deal with fireballs.

Blanka; ok walk speed, great jump but almost no range, ok long range normal but doesnt lead to anything at full distance, slide, great FA dash.

Fei; shitty walk speed, decent jump (not as fast as Vega’s), Chicken Wing

Cammy; Ultra, EX Cannon Drill, OK walk speed, ok jump, pretty good long range air normal that leads to places, ok FA.

Honda; OK walk speed, jump is to horizontal so easy to AA, st.hk to force trade.

Yeah Vega has good things going for him for fireballs. This is not super turbo, you can actually walk forward on all fireball characters except Dhalsim. Walk Speed, jump duration, and range are big factors when it comes to dealing with projectiles. Look at marvel Magneto. eight way dash, fastest iirc, recovers crazy fast, super jump.

as for EX RCF having use now, not really. jumping works better most of the time, and if you land EX RCF then what? hence the buff on it for AE, to actually give it a use. You land it, bam you get to do (i think this should work) cr.lp/lk xx ST. and EX ST is better punisher for canceled fireballs. and what is it going to be on block +2 or +1. +1 makes more sense.

@Jai

People need to learn to walk forward with Vega. Zangief has it bad, or at least with out meter. Only character that raped honda was Sagat, and that was SF4. Honda did well in Japan, unlike here where most if not all Honda mains managed to lie to themselves that Honda is not top tier or any good becasue of one match up. Ive reason to belive that if Joz walked forward just a bit more he could have made Daigo start using cr.mk. from there he can space himself and just be outside range and punish whiffed cr.mp. (If you noticed Daigo did this to Joz every single game. He managed to stay just outside where he is safe. Joz should have done that to Daigo, that is one of Vega’s key strengths.) there is a reason why cr.mk active frames are being reduced in AE. Its long active frames makes people walk into the move so much. So if you are not Vega, cr.mk rapes you.

edit: im not saying the traps are useless. Still its not helping Vega’s game and not replacing CH. Also somewhere along the line CH failed you. I dont blame you its a crappy move at first glance, but like Kouryuu said, its a godlike move once you learn to use it and hide it.

i said all you can do is walk forward*. notice how i also argued that getting in that range ISN’T as easy as “walking forward”. i’m forced to jump, or somehow make up that ground without trouble.

you also forgot bison’s EX PC And EX Scissors, both punishing fireballs on reaction. And Blanka’s EX Horizontal. How is forcing trades ideal for vega? i already stated that to get INTO the range in WHICH you can make those things happen (including punishing blocked fireballs) is ideal. But you didn’t tell me what you can do from outside that range. J. mp can stuff fireballs if you’re already in poke distance, but it can’t punish fireballs from a distance on reaction. The spacing doesn’t work that way. In addition, if you’re forced to use your jump to get around fireballs, isn’t that exactly what ryu wants you to do?

I’m making this argument because of all the ryus who gave me trouble with fireballs, it was daigo. If I jump in on Daigo and have an air normal be blocked, because otherwise i’m making a gamble by jumping over fireballs to get a combo, then i can get SRK’d, or AA’d with crouch mk. There’s no safe approach and in essence these fireball characters can pressure Vega always with the risk reward balance in their favor significantly.

My whole PLAN was to either counter poke some fireballs, or move into range and do exactly what you said. but i had the most trouble doing that because of the fireballs. yeah I can walk forward to make up a lot of ground, but consider the fact that vega can’t FOCUS through them. you get pushed back after every fireball. how much ground exactly are you gonna make up? jumping doesn’t get you punishes and you sacrifice control to put yourself in an only slightly ideal situation. plus you can’t “walk forward” a fireball on reaction and get a reliable punish, no you just have to deal with it.

being able to walk forward and jump doesn’t help vega get into poking range safely, nor does vega have fireball punishes on reaction barring ultra.

EDIT: *Oops, I didn’t say that, lol. I thought i did.

EDIT 2: I feel as though the only instance in which Vega can control the pace of the match is when he’s in poke range. You just have to get in there and stay there. once you’re in there the only thing that becomes an issue is c. mk counter pokes. i feel like i did a poor job of dealing with that against daigo.

Lol, I did a poor job of everything against daigo. let’s just spare the “joz could have” and agree that I fucked up. =(

EDIT 3: Here’s a thought: stay outside of “just outside poke range” with Vega and jump into poke distance as opposed to trying to get close. Use walk speed to do a better job maintaining that distance and make your gambles or neutral jumps / focus dashing when you can. But regardless: jumping is not what I consider a good option. You still aren’t punishing fireballs, and jumping in can be dealt with in a variety of ways, including just jumping in on vega once he’s on the ground and has no escape manuevers.

I’m not used to a Ryu player being able to really keep me out with fireballs, I normally make up the ground quick or just get rushed down, so I’m trying to deliberate. Feel free to help me out.

Bison and Blanka have to be charging. Why would they, except Blanka, hold down back? If it was Guile or Chun i would be inclined to agree. But i didnt put them becasue you have to hold down back. To me holding down back while someone is throwing fireballs just makes it easier for them.

As for the jump thing. YOu dont have to attack, attacking not only extends your hitbox by a lot, but makes you recover longer making it easier to AA you. Ryu wants you to jump, and attack. Member how i said, Bisons floaty jump and HOnda’s horizontal jump really screw them over. Vega has the convenience off being able to empty jump because of a small hit box while in the air, and fast jump. Space your jump in, it sounds stupid, but it actually works.

Jump where normally SRK will hit at max or mid distance and dont attack. Since you didnt extend your hitbox, its going to take more time for the move to get to where you are, in that time frame you have recovered and its to late for him to FADC cancel. Like i said this isnt ST, a lot of anti-fireball techniques do not work in this game, and new ones can be applied thanks to the nature of this game. Like walking in on guile. You couldnt in SF2, but you can here. At least thats how i see it. Walking forward in this game stops the fireball.

Also the biggest thing that i saw that kills walking forward, and this was evident in your matches was Ryu’s cr.mk. To learn how to walk forward more effectively you have to beat cr.mk, or a low of similar nature ie Sagat, Guile, Ken. Makoto demonstrates this, in SBO 2009, matches vs Daigo, vs ACERININ, or any fireballer for that matter… At least that is where all this anti-fireball tech theory is coming from. Ive also learned that this helps immensely with characters with no fireballs because its infinitely easier.

In regards to CH in AE, if it’s safe on block when used at mid range (i.e. if I can still use it to punish crouch tech in the same manner as I do now without the possibility of being punished on block), I’ll continue to use it in the same manner I do now (outside some match ups, such as Gief).

Even if I’m left at a disadvantageous position and am forced to eat a block string, I feel it’s worth putting myself in that position if it grants me the possibility of strong [meterless] punish. And after playing Vega for as long as I have, I trust in my defense. After all, if I do end up guessing wrong, it doesn’t guarantee damage for my opponent (entirely unlike if he ends up guessing wrong :wgrin: )

Though I definitely won’t abuse it as much as I do now (not worth constantly risking the loss of momentum for imo). I feel the cr.mk buff will strongly help Vega at mid range and with frame traps. Cr.mk > cr.mp xx EX FBA (or EX RCF assuming it works/connects) will be my go to punish with meter when I catch a counter with cr.mk frame traps. The cr.mk buff is what I’m most looking forward to in AE. Hopefully they increased the start up on EX RCF so it can be comboed off cr.mp (at least from close range) similar to lp RCF. That would be pretty sick actually and a very strong buff. If not, hopefully they’ve increased it the start up to be able to combo off cr.mk.

The buffs for cr.mk and the ex rcf are awesome. I can deal with the damage nerfs for cr.mp and cr.mk, but what they’ve done to CH and the start-up on U2 aren’t justified trade offs at all. None the less we’ll all just have to deal with it, and stick with the mask and claw honorably.

I’m not good with ssf4 science and all a.k.a frame data, what would the start up of cs.hp have to be for Rcf -> Fadc cs.hp to be linked? 0% chance of that ever happening tho… =(

Edit: nvm, found the answer to my question after i posted it…

way i see it, -1 or -2 frame advance on CH is certainly weakening our mixup opportunities but it is not screwing the move entirely.

When I use CH i expect to land it, and if I don’t whether I get +3 or +1 doesn’t matter, +3 doesn’t make anything behind a true blockstring or a tick throw even if you only get +1

You will still beat almost anything in that game with a throw,
and beat what negates the throw with jump out fierce
and beat what beats both these options with block backdash or backslash, it is still a strong mixup

it only just screws us against character with 2 frame jabs who will now get there pressure game and blockstring granted after a blocked CH, every body else with a three framer gets thrown, or need to commit into a reversal move that 95% is easily punishable on block.

in the end +2 it is more a matter of making things more difficult to execute than to limit our options. +1 limits our options on a handfull of characters but not on everybody.

It still makes CH a very long range fail safe punishing combo starting move.
It still makes any landing CH a very easy garnered 250 hp.
Still makes CH a top tier counter poke

**cr.mk 6 frames stp **is making vega footsies a pain for a lot of other footsies heavy character especially shotos, because ( if keeping its fr adv) it makes a truckload of link combos and the damage and meter generation they bring with them way faster. which means that not only vega stays the annoying prick he is on footsies, but that he deals real damage more often during footsies.

honestly I ll trade 10 damage on ji.hp – cr.mk – fst.lk – fst.lk --cr.hp anyday with the 2 frames i get to throw my jump in earlier, or have it string more reliably on block,

It makes our pressure game so much more solid, and makes our jumps in easy to hit confirm. opening for better throw setups on landing, or other tricks.

Cr.mk is our number one combo starter and is only even involved once in a combo, it is better that it does a tad less damage but starts a lot faster.

cr.mp doing less damage, okay whatever. the better with vega you become the less damage you score thanks to cr.mp anyways.

Plus odds are lots of stuff we were doing with cr.mp we ll be able to replace it with
cr.mk – cr.mp instead, 120
or even cr.mk – fst.lk – cr.mp 148
or on certain characters cr.mk – fst.lk – cr.hp, 188

which in the end looks like a potential +50 damage boost ore more on our poking pattern instead of a -10.

Now at the range where we can only just use cr.mp it comboes into nothing anyway, so we can still use fst.mk with its superior range, superior priority and that is all in all a much safer poke at that range, we are losing charge… right, whatever at that range we ll have it back before we need it if the other guy tries a foolhardy jump-in or whiffs his focus/punish/reversal under our nose.

As for EX RCF comboing in / out of cr.mp that is all very confusing,

something comboing into cr.mp seems to implie that it leaves you at +4 en hit but too far to land any other 4 framer/ grab.

This in turns tends to suggest that anything cancelling this cr.mp will not connect. so I really don’t see the whole interest of that. that would be a small damage buff for EX RCF damage output. open for a karathrow/cr.mp mixup on block.

And if the moves gets +2 hitstun that means it now comboes into FADC + 6 framers ( cr.mk…) and easyly comboes into FADC 4 framers. we are speaking about easy acces to extremely damaging FADC finishes with a full super meter.

So all in all i don’t see that happening. that is easy access to 350+ damage ground punish combos… hum, would be good though…

the other thing suggest that cr.mp cancels into EX RCF, this seems more likely to me,

opens for nice ground combos we couldn’t even dream of before and true blockstring jump-ins hit confirmable combo, safe on block after jump in, doing a tad more damage.

somehow this sounds more reasonable as a buff than the other one.

**backdash nerf ** sounds annoying to me if it includes extra frames making it slower,

but if it is like joz said, putting him airborne right after invincibility, it is actually not a nerf I am fully with joz, i hate being grabbed out of a backdash, i hate when akuma demon kick meaty into my back dash means 50% my health gone, a reset seems like the lesser of 2 evils, seriously.

Hey guys I was just looking at Vega’s frame data recently and i found out that his far standing light punch is amongst the most useless jabs or moves period in the game.

It’s +2 on hit which means he can’t link into anything and it’s -1 on block, and on top of that it doesn’t reach that very far?

why does this move exist?

To stop tiger knee dead in its tracks at mid range. And to stuff neutral jumps and back jumps. At least that is what ive found best use of the move.

Frame advantage and link ability does not determine if a move is good or not.

Doesn’t far standing roundhouse do the same job if not better?

well,

Vega st.Hk is a kinda of special move, unless the first hit has something to hit, after the 4 startup, the active frames are discarded and the move carries on right to the second set of active frames, ‘normally’ a move with 2 hits like say cls.hp or RCF… etc, keeps its active frames and if the first active whiffs , a more meaty active frame is tested etc and so on.

fst.HK first hit is never meaty it happens or it never existed. so basically used to stuff TK fst.hk will have 6 frames startup, while fst.lp has only 4.

that plus the hitbox/punch box of both moves
http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/8108/slp2.png
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/1599/shk3.png
you can see that both move have the same kind of priority during active frames,

BUT during startup frames fst.HK has vega hitbox moving a lot toward front, which really doesn’t help when trying to stuff a move like TK, you are basically running into the other guy’s active frames with a 6 startup. fst.lp keeps you almost where you are, In the case of stuffing TK it delays the moment when his punch box will touch your hitbox.

Now say you guessed right you land st.hk you do 70 Dam- 125Stun - 20meter. You guess wrong you hit block and are at -7, you get comboed. you were late you eat TK.

with fst.lp you land it you do 40 - 50 Stun - 20 meter, you guess wrong you hit block you are at -1 you are safe. you are late you eat TK.

finally as said pedo, some counters and some moves have their interest somewhere else. plenty moves have better frame perks than a shoto’s cr.mk, but you ll see none is really that hot, piece of mercury though which on the paper is a terrible move, beats it flat everytime.

So does anyone have any vids of a good Vega utilizing his new build on AE? I’m searching for vids on youtube and I haven’t come across anything, save for this Vega vs a Dudley. The CH nerf seems to be bad.

Here’s a vid of Tatsu showing a couple of Vegas changes. The U2 start up is noticable, but not as bad as I thought.
EDIT:
Try this link instead. I posted the other one from a mobile site [media=youtube]7r56gnQvsTo[/media]

EDIT: In this second vid he shows off CH. Apparently its not as bad as we thought.
[media=youtube]VRhbSDM26b0&feature=related[/media]

the ex rcf into cr. m into ex wall dive was sick!!
looks like its gonna do at least 300 damage or maybe a little more… but you think you will be able to combo into ultra1, 2( maybe ultra 1 cause ultra 2 has more startup now…) after the ex roll?

Lol absolutely not. A counter-hit meaty Ex-RCF on the last active frame of the the last hit will give you +10 (+4 hit, +3 counter-hit, +3 for hitting on the 4th active frame), which might be enough actually (depends on if U1 has to travel for more than 2 frames while active), but obviously it would be the most telegraphed move in the history of fighting games.

Why is this sick? The only reliable way to land EX RCF is to cancel it from cl.HP, and when you land a cl.HP, you can do the cr.MP xx EX FBA, which also does 300 damage with only 1 meter.

And why do we have 2 AE threads?

Yes I agree with you wwmajin, we have same question
But other than this case, landing EX roll through Fireball isn’t bad idead , because of faster startup on Ex roll I think
Do we have another way to safety land Ex roll ?
Besides, we shouldn’t focus too much on how Vega changes, what we need to think about is how his moves affect other character’s moves, Capcom might change it a little but we didn’t realize
For example, cr. roundhouse can beat heavy roll of Blanka