Eh… so long as CH is safe when used at proper distance (mid range), I’m content. Everything else is just a bonus for me. I don’t mind the nerf so much anymore. I do think they “balanced” it out.
And we might get some subtle buffs on normals that weren’t mentioned. Imagine if cr.lk gives +4 on hit… that’d be rape and more than I can ask for.
@ Deuy- Just cause it starts faster doesn’t mean it has less total frames. It could start on an earlier frame and have more hitstun which is the most logical choice of change. I doubt they would give it extra frames, because that would be a retarded trade off because then it would be easier to focus and jump in on vega which would weaken its purpose as a poke. And if they gave it less frames, then it would be crazy fast for the type of poke it will be (it would be 17 frames total). I doubt they would go either way and just keep total frames.
@Kouryuu- The only thing I think they will give vega as a secret buff if anything is a hitbox fix on BHC, so it doesn’t wiff on hit, or 18 frame dash, or I frames on Ex ST which they considered apparently a few weeks back. It is clear that Capcom does not want Vega to be Vega so they will keep him as far down on the tier list as possible.
Ok, I figured they would just cut 2 frames off the startup of the move, leaving recovery and hitstun intact. Doesn’t that seem the easiest way to change it? It wouldn’t be any faster on recovery, just startup.
If they move the active frames earlier and increase hitstun like you suggest, wouldn’t that mean you could be left with some ridiculous advantage on hit if you land it on the last active frame? Something like +8 or +9 advantage. Come to think of it, could that be the reason SC got nerfed startup? Hmmm…
Edit: nevermind I think I’m confusing myself. If the active frames move earlier and the hitstun increases, the advantage would be the same on hit. They could change any of those values anyway.
Isnt one clsmic heels greatest sthrenghts its plus frames?
Thats my main concern on cr.mk. Do they add recovery frames to the whole animation. Or do they keep it the same by giving it more hitstun or do they add more active frames?
The greatest strength of CH is to be able to punish crouch techs from mid range without the possibility of being punished (if blocked).
That’s what makes CH such a strong tool. As long as this is possible in AE, it will remain a strong tool. We just have to hope it’s not jab/reversal DP punishable on block.
The frame advantage we get on block right now is definitely a plus since the opponent is left at the end of a guessing game. But even if we’re left at a disadvantage in AE, so long as there is no guaranteed punish on your opponents end, we’ll be fine.
It will be jab and dp punishable if you don’t space it enough, assuming the active frames stay the same. If it’s 0 frames at max distance, it will be -4 disadvantage at point blank (currently the range is +3 to -1). So if you screw up, it should be a guaranteed combo or srk.
If you want to kill a crochtech with CH in AE, you either have to commit fully, knowing that if your opponent doesn’t actually tech, you’ll eat a full punish combo. Or, you have to use CH from a safe range, which is outside of your kara range, which definitely makes it less effective. And not only making it punishable, it will never be advantageous on block, which is just a major dick in the ass. Opponent blocked a safe CH? Great, now either os tech or backdash. No, don’t keep attacking, don’t do it. DON’T PUSH THAT BUTTON YOU’RE GONNA GE-… NOOOOO!
Which is exactly what Vega needed.
That’s right. If we don’t space it, we’ll be left at -4 (point blank). But if the active frames remain the same, it shouldn’t hit on the first active [or even second] frame when used at mid range, just outside kara throw range. Which means we’ll be left at -2. That’s the key. So long as we space it enough that we’re left at -2, we’ll be fine against most characters (excluding grapplers).
In sounds worse in theory but I know it wont be as bad in practice. Opponents will crouch tech even when Vega is slightly outside of his kara throw range due to the fear of a walk up kara throw (fastest walk speed + kara throw = scary). Knowing that much, we can goad an opponent to throw out a crouch tech by simply being anywhere close to kara throw range (mid range). So we can we can still have the luxury to space a CH for the punish.
Do you think that that will be the case in high level play?
The thing I find scariest about the whole walk forward poke/kara/CH/block etc is the whole walk forward-part, because it forces a reaction - they have to decide what to do, because you’re coming for that ass. Now, if you stop walking forward - staying out of your most effective range, what would they have to fear? CH or poke? Why would anyone try crouchteching that? You still have time to react to whether I’m walking into range or not, and if I’m not, then they won’t tech. Of course, I’m bound to safely catch some crouchtechs by simply stop walking forward outside of kara range, and then going for CH, but how many times will I be able to do that before I’m figured out? People will notice that I’m not actually threatening them with a throw. And then I need to go for unsafe ones. Or not go for them at all. Basically, we’re just losing options with this change. I hope to … whatever atheists hope for, that I’m mistaken. I guess we’ll find out soon enough.
i played sabin last night and iirc i didn’t land very many cosmic heels at all.
not to mention he teched nearly every throw.
i still won more than he did, but it was basically by relying on my footsies and playing lame.
this is why i think cosmic heel is overrated. half the time i’d try to do it, he’d simply move around it, or he’d be playing someone who just crouches under it, and the other half, he would simply always block it.
i think cosmic heel is hella risky and most of my damage came shutting him out by mixing up anti airs and basically owning the ground game. i’d just hold on to life leads and play conservatively.
theo nly times i DID get cosmic heels is when i’d do a mixup like whiff mk ST, c. jab, then cosmic heel to beat chicken wing and flame kick, but i still never manged to get the grab to connect when i mixed up with that.
perhaps there’s something i can learn about my throw game by playing sabin, but i don’t see why that’s what i should be worrying about (with regard to AE nerf) when i still managed to win using so many other things.
just my 2 cents.
edit: sabin played rose, bison, cammy, sagat, fei long, and adon.
edit 2: the only character who was obviously struggling with cosmic heel was sagat.
Who’d Sabin use?
And did you record? :o
i didn’t record, but i can save the matches and upload them. i was probably gonna do that, there’s some other really old sets i have never uploaded either.
shweet beanz
Well, the new info from Arcadia is, that we can now get thrown after cosmic heel, which means we have to be at least -4. Now if thats only on the first active frame, its a nerf of 3 (!!!) frames! (at least…) Capcom really must be on some really bad shit…
…
Peace guys, good knowing you all…
goes to main Juri full-time
can I has your stuff? 
… in all seriousness wait till dlc before you go off becoming a full time purple spider lesbian, it could be a flaw in the current build or some such.
LOOOOL!
Vega will be fine.
:lol:@ purple spider lesbian
If I was any good with juri i wouldve moved on to her a long time ago, besides I dont like using Vega nowadays unless its a serious match 
seriously though, Fuck Capcom if its really -4 on block.
You guys just loooooove freaking out about cosmic heel.
I’m gonna say it again, but I really think cosmic heel is unreliable. Hearing some of the set ups and stuff that Alex, Koryuu, Deuy and I were talking about earlier got me optimistic and I felt I needed to use Cosmic heel more at CC, but I really don’t think that this nerf is the be all end all, like Koryuu said.
Right now, I’m gonna go to training, do cosmic heel, and see if (at kara throw distance) i can record vega to do a ch, hold up, and zangief ultra him. (of course hitboxes are all different but that at least gives a general sense).