USF4 | Tier List Thread (updated October 2015)

Seems to be making a lot out of a simple concept imo.

Different buttons change the timing of the match. Stick a button out with the wrong timing, and you might get hit if you’re following the wrong rhythm. Even before getting into things like changing hitboxes so you won’t be hit low or w/e.

Yeah, it is too much discussion for literally the simplest concept in fighting games. I think that is why we were going so in depth, because I was pretty baffled that Mike just couldn’t understand what we were getting at.

this completely ignores player tendency, your own conditioning, the way they condition you, and the ability to mix the rhythm at which buttons are pressed as well as what range is used or not used.

just looking at frame data is like expecting 2 robots to go in and press a randomly selected button at the same range and rhythm

look at it like this. as chun you dont always have to press standing mp at the same timing. you could walk to the same spot wait like 5 frames and then press the button. what if she walks forward, pauses, then walks in and presses stand jab?

i guess my mind would explode at that point?

but yeah, thats why the raw numbers arent as important as youre making them out to be. its almost dead last in order of importance with regard to footsies. walk speed, range, the space youre trying to have your normal occupy, all the other human controlled factors, and then frame data somewhere near the bottom

i wish there were some hardcore 3s players around. those guys have a really strong understanding of these concepts. ask them how much frame data really matters when you talk footsies

good post but it all factors in. the concept of footsies as a whole is broad and abstract enough for you to define the different aspects completely differently from the next player.

like i said this stuff isnt happening between a pair of robots and isnt as black and white as one character having a bunch of moves that are really negative on block, or reversals that dont have full invincibility

Whatever man, I’m done with the subject. No one here is saying those things aren’t important, just that you’re downplaying the importance of frame data.

you do understand that the rhythm of the button presses themselves change right? probably not or i wouldnt have to ask that sort of question.

really? footsies is the simplest concept in fighting games? i think my brain just exploded. like i cant even look at my computer right now

because it isnt that important in the context of footsies. it just flat out isnt. but its a very advanced thing we are discussing and you think its the simplest concept in fighting games. i guess i cant expect that much to come out of further discussion anyways

You explain it though as if good players don’t adapt, further on that you can’t pick up on player tendencies unless A) you play this player frequently B) you have seen this player against your chosen character multiple times. Footsies is primarily bait and punish, you can’t bait by just reacting. You have to give a reason. If anything I think your explanation seems more robotic.

The way you explain footsies here is that if you press anything as the aggressor , you better be prepared to get whiff punished. Game doesn’t work like that. I can ultra on reaction adon jag kicks for example but I have to consciously look and buffer for it which at the same time effects my ability to react to other things.

Anyway its getting a bit heated in here , so I made a tier list-

Reaction time tier list -

HNCImike
Venus fly traps.
Bruce lee
Fuudo
Cats
Getting caught with porn on laptop
Deejay

Well obviously I know you can choose not to press a button or delay or w/e, but that doesn’t really detract from what I said imo, just expands it; it’s still rhythm, and you can read it and respond accordingly after a time. Unless you’re trying to drive at some other point which I’m not getting, which is totally possible bc I still think I’m fairly new.

You aren’t explaining to me anything I don’t already know. And it is clear from your examples that you don’t understand a thing I’m saying.

Even top level players don’t whiff punish some medium buttons consistently. Hell just watch Snake Eye’s vs Xian and watch how many times Xian whiffs c.MP with Gen. That button’s slower than Chun’s s.MP. You see top level players whiffing buttons unpunished often enough that says that when they do whiff punish a button they aren’t doing it on reaction, they are making a read.

Maybe with Yang or whoever you use against Chun the button you use doesn’t have the same restrictions I have on my buttons. But I guarantee you, you would not be able to reaction punish Chun’s s.MP with Akuma’s sweep when she is properly mixing up her buttons. I would put money on that.

Then again Yang’s c.MK ducks him fairly low so maybe you can press the c.MK button with more lenient timing than I can with Akuma. Maybe for Yang you have the luxury of not having to give a fuck what button she pressed because spacing exists for Yang where he can counter both buttons. I don’t play the character so I don’t know. But I play Akuma and I do have to care which button he is going to press.

It would be an extreme example if it was actually a good one. We are talking about a button being so fast you can’t react to it and you picked one of the slowest moves in the game as an example. That’s apples and oranges.

I mean apply the same math.

Hugo HP Clap: 24 frame start up, 4 active frames, 5 recovery, 32 total frames
Chun s.MP: 7 frame start up, 2 active frames, 10 recovery, 18 total frames

Under ideal conditions, to whiff punish Hugo’s clap with a 6 frame normal you need to press the button around frames 21-26. This means you have about 21 frames to react to the move and another 5 to actually press the button Aka even someone with absolutely awful reactions could probably do that.

To whiff punish Chun’s s.MP with a 6 frame normal you need to press the button around frames 7-12. Which means you need to already be pushing the button before most people can properly react to it.

This is of course assuming you are far enough back you won’t get tagged by the active frames of the move. Which if you are using Akuma’s sweep it has to be pressed after the active frames because his hurt box balloons to the size of the moon when you press the button. So if they are still in the active frames you will get counter hit.

So even using my math it pretty well explains your example. That’s why it was a bad example!

No it hasn’t. I understand your point even better than you understand it.

You know why I am using these numbers? Because it tells you what the fuck you have to do to actually counter a collection of buttons.

Is it really laggy on recovery? You can let it whiff and easily punish it.
Is it too fast to react to it on whiff? You have to use some other indicator like your opponent’s motion to try to punish it on whiff.

It is the same math as if I had to drive 60 miles to be at a meeting and I want to know how early I would have to leave. I can stop and say “ok, most highways have a speed limit of about 60-70 MPH. Therefore I should try to leave at least an hour early to make it on time.” I can also figure out from the numbers that if I have to drive 60 miles in a half hour that it would be impossible without speeding.

There are times when theory can explain things better than actually going into the lab.

Pretty sure she can only super off counter hit on c.MP. The move is neutral on hit I believe. Which is why mistaking it for s.MP is a problem because you usually get counter hit in the process.

Accurate DJ representation.

OK really last time I’ll bite.

Footsies are very simple, since its literally the concept of space control by using different buttons. Yes obviously we have broken it down much more, but thats pretty much what it comes down to.

However, simple doesn’t always mean easy in the grand scheme of things, as we all know that footsies and fundamentals are THE hardest things to master in fighting games.

Yeah I meant counter hit , I thought I put that in.

The part you mentioned about yangs cr.mk being just a strong button to counter anything that moves is what I was thinking when mike was explaining. You can do it, but not to specific normals, its more like “she’s open, I can press it”

Actually was just testing it on training. There is a range Yang can c.HK and catch both buttons without varying the timing by much. So Yang can indiscriminately just react to the whiff.

That might actually explain some things where he’s coming from. He doesn’t have to wait for the active frames to go away like Akuma does. You can tag the start up frames of Akuma’s sweep from half the screen.

The fuck are yall niggas even talking about anymore

I don’t really understand why you guys are arguing at this point. A lot of what you’re saying just goes together. Frame Data isn’t everything, but it is one of many factors like spacing, hitboxes, player tendencies and such to put together a picture on how to beat X opponent.

Giving Hugo a Dive kick.

the point is that if both players have the ability to adapt, change buttons, button rhythm, range, and characters that have comparable character tool sets for footsies, you shouldnt get fucked by a 6 frame difference as to when you can press your button in an attempt to whiff punish

it started as yang chun, but its going into footsie theory now. for the record out of the things you listed im saying frame data is least important, loyal sol and will smith think its much higher up the list in regard to footsies

Just to illustrate what I am talking about. In this video I’m intentionally trying to press it early.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXf2zDgiVew&feature=youtu.be

You can see how far away you can get hit by c.MP if you press the sweep during the active frames of the c.MP. It’s the same with s.MP as well.

This is what I mean by you have to know which button she is pressing to be able to whiff punish it with sweep. Because you have to wait till the end of the active frames to actually whiff punish the button or you have to stuff it out of the start up.

Both buttons require different timings to whiff punish. If you guess s.MP when she does c.MP you get counter hit. If you guess c.MP when she does s.MP you might get your sweep blocked which could potentially mean getting Ultraed.

This wasn’t an issue in past versions when gettings your sweep blocked wasn’t the biggest deal. Now it is.

The only solution is to make tier lists.

No that’s complete fucking horseshit and a straw man. Because that ignores the context of my original argument.

This was the case in AE 2012 and I thought Akuma did just fine in footsies against Chun back then. Why? Well because back then even though I generally got out buttoned and Chun had the advantage of varying her timing. I didn’t need many hits. I needed one good one. I didn’t have the advantage in variability, but I had the advantage in making it hurt when I did get the hit.

In AE 2012 I could generally bide my time, take a few hits, and ultimately not care about eating a s.MP or two. Because the moment I got the sweep I could go to town. Also she couldn’t really focus my sweep or Ultra it so the risk of throwing out a sweep to test my luck wasn’t an issue.

Fast forward to USF4. I can no longer Sweep > U1 which means that now focus attack becomes a huge deal and also fucking up a whiff punish could potentially mean losing 50% of my health. Even if I do land a sweep the vortex isn’t as strong so there is no guarantee I’ll get rewarded for it. Chun if I recall got a 50 health buff which means she can take a few extra hits. And Chun still has the neutral game advantages she had in the last version.

In the last version a single fuck up for Chun could cause her to lose a lot of health. In this version a single fuck up for Akuma can cause him to lose a lot of health. So that’s why having to guess which button she pushed is a huge deal because a wrong read can be disastrous. That’s why she’s gained quite a bit of an advantage. Couple that with the airfireball nerf (another area she suffered with) and now you’ll find Akuma’s neutral game against Chun got worse in multiple areas.

In other match ups, this might not be so bad. IN THIS MATCH UP. It is bad.

lol. easy there. just a generalization. no mas. i think you understand what i was saying, and i understand what you were saying now. didnt know akuma sweep had such a massive hurtbox on the front end. bad assumption on my end. that post came out before srk let me see your previous 2

all 3 of my characters can pretty much just react with one button or another, so ive never had a real issue with this whole crouch mp stand mp button mix