I guess it depends on what discussion you are having. If you are saying you can “whiff punish” Chun’s ST MP, well no you can’t. If you are saying you can out footsies Chun, well yes you can. While footsies is more than reactions a whiff punish is simply numbers.
It depends on what you are actually discussing.
Akuma’s sweep has been grossly overrated. Now that DWU has been introduced and he can’t ultra cancel it his main poke is going to be cr mk. Sweep will be a situational poke like ST HK.
just to reiterate the point. st.mp is useful against cr.mk for yang. I mentioned it because you mentioned that it beats her st.mp but if youre simply using cr.mk then she has answers to that, which is why yang doesnt have an advantage on the ground with this.
Now that thje topic of yangs cr.hk came up, theres a more complete picture but she has answers to that to, but it comes from whiff punishing, baiting and punishing on block. But I dont want to restart the last 9999999 posts.
…
I think my faith in SRK may have slightly been restored…now I’m just waiting for Chubby to come in and kill that faith again.
That said, that hurtbox is primarily why I get annoyed when people say “Ryu does fine against Chun!” or things like “Well Ryu has had an unsafe sweep and he’s just fine!”
c.MK for both Ryu and Akuma are actually better buttons for beating Chun’s buttons because they can go under s.MP’s hit box from the correct range. Except Akuma can’t combo worth shit off his while Ryu can. Which is the reason why having an unsafe sweep for Ryu isn’t such a bad thing while for Akuma it’s absolutely horrible. Akuma is left poking for 60 damage a pop while Ryu can hit for over 200 with a good read. And with the fact Akuma’s health is 850 tiny hits add up on him faster than they do on Ryu.
The other advantage Ryu has is that his sweep is 5 frames so he can actually punish Chun’s sweep on block with something meaningful. Akuma can’t because his sweep is 1 frame too slow and as previously mentioned c.MK doesn’t combo into anything.
People complained about Akuma’s sweep, but they never realized how hard it is to actually use it well because of that hurtbox. The button itself was just ok. What was great on it was the reward for landing it.
i can see your point, but i look at them the same because its too hard to apply the hard number side of things without a good grasp of the other. but thats a completely fair way to define the 2 different aspects
damn that sweep is that bad then
give akuma 2hit sweep 
And faith in SRK destroyed. That lasted a whole 20 minutes. I think that’s a new record.
yeah really had no idea how large the hurtbox was that extends before his leg comes out. i havent seen any hit box videos, but from that video, it looks like the leg hurtbox is out there for the whole start up and the hitbox only catches up to it, instead of both of them extending at the same time. thats extra terrible as far as hurtboxes go
Nope! It’s because when Akuma does a crHK his whole body shifts forward dramatically. That is why it has such far reach and why it’s so hard to punish on block. It’s a double edged sword. The leg hurtbox and hitbox extend at same frame.
And here I thought Akuma’s sweep was stupid good…
I don’t think it is a coincidence that the bad crouching kicks have the SF3 animations while the good ones have the SF2. Who the hell inside Capcom hates 3S?
does that apply to e.ryu´s sweep?
Here is a video of Akuma’s sweep at 3FPS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJkWyABKaQE
You can clearly see the frames he suddenly lunges his whole body forward on startup
yes
Makoto’s crMK says hi. 
Akuma’s crHK is still really good it’s just got an issue that helps it as much as hurts it. It’s just got less reward and a higher risk than before. It needed only 1 of those things. DWU or U1 cancel remove. Removing BOTH the benefit of hitting sweep and adding a higher risk to it was too much of a nerf. It’s still good, but it’s no longer “one of the best buttons in the game.” now it’s just “pretty good” which is kind of a big deal given that Akuma only had a couple of buttons he really can rely on for mid to long range footsies, now he doesn’t really have any “dominating” normal move and only a couple of “pretty good” normals and a bunch of "unremarkable at best"normals.
I would personally call the normals conditional. Against the right opponents they are good but there is a mix of tools that some characters have that just crap on Akuma’s buttons now.
reporting as requested! my perception is that the frame data matters, but I think of it in an internalized way and not in numbers. so like off the top of my head I can’t tell you the frame data of Chun low forward, but because of the matchup I’ve always run through the common situations a million times and know what I can see and punish on reaction vs what I need to guess about.
for that reason when I’m playing footsies with someone I try to set up specific situations where I’m only looking for a couple things. a really obvious example of this is like Chun-Ken (I’m the Ken player)
short x3 (blocked)
walk back a small bit
here I can either just input low forward immediately (this will automatically counterpoke her low forward and I can visually confirm the counterpoke into super) or if I feel my reactions are really on the ball I can wait and try and counterpoke the normals she’s likely to use at that range.
I feel it’s difficult to reliably whiff punish Chun low forward with Ken. if it’s all I’m looking for I can do it. but in normal midrange I can’t always see it. but if I set up a situation like the one I described above, I can definitely see it. so while I’m not thinking about the frame data in that situation I’ve already built that setup around whatever her frame data is, and the knowledge of whether I can punish it on reaction.
obviously there are other factors too, like the tendencies of the other player, how much game knowledge I think they have, what the meter and life situations are, etc.
not sure if that helps or not. but I am a hardcore 3s player!
Obviously nobody reacts to every piece of frame data, that’s nonsense , you just flag certain moves in your match up thoughts while it plays out ( eg, if I focus through chuns sweep I can punish)
Sol was only using data to prove that even though you think you might be whiff punishing, you are realistically preparing and an eyeballing the situation with at least some basic prior knowledge. Like with Fei long you can stand at a distance where his cr.jab will catch a limb, but you deliberately stand too far away for their normal to hit, a lot if the time it won’t matter what they press, it,ll either lose, or whiff completely. Its not really reactions, its just quality preparation.
Oh SHIT. We back to Akuma’s sweep?! This is my shit right now this is the SRK I love. Doesn’t matter where we go or what we talk about, we always end up back here and I fucking love it
Time to pack up shop. Obviously Akuma’s sweep still leads to unescapeable vortex, we just hadn’t noticed that it was still OP outside of USF4
Kappa
If I may be honest and somewhat serious for a moment. I genuinely feel that as of right now, I cannot find a single complaint about Akuma no matter how hard I try. For the first time, I feel like Akuma is 100% perfect in my own mind.
I don’t play him, so I can’t exactly form a serious judgement because I don’t know his intricacies. But I would be fine never speaking about him again in any context.
lol jk nerf that fgt and his retarded sweep
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFvHXKtWQAE
This game is ridiculous and boring, no wonder every tournament has a Cammy in top 8. Relatively safe vortex and divekick, and retarded stun and damage output. Only takes two mixups for her to stun you and win the game.
http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/sf4/
Yun is back to his dumb divekick, press buttons to win status like AE. No wonder Akuma, Cammy and Akuma are top 5 in this game. Whatever crapcom I’m done buying your games.
Dont you think thats poor character design considering:
-If you dont have to block akumas stand hk twice
-If you can punish akumas sweep/if you can bypass it
Then that automatically makes it disadvantaged for akuma?
But if the answer is no for either of those things then its about even or advantaged for akuma? This was on top of the vortex stuff so you were double hosed knocked down or neutral.