If there is anyone’s top list I believe its Aquas. Also interesting the only characters different on Nemo and Amiyu’s list are Dudley and Adon. Both of them put Ken and E.Ryu right next to each other as well. I wonder who Aqua has right after Juri? Probably Poison
But in real matches it CAN be pressed because it carries very little risk and it shuts things down.
Most Chuns dont know to use it. Thats why it isnt used. Theres no other reason than that. So, again, your frequency argument holds no weight what so ever, because you cant come up with objective reasons why it isnt a factor. It absolutely is and just because you dont see it doesnt even begin to help you.
Sometimes top players lack situational knowledge or prefer to use a tool that they are more comfortable with because of habits. Fight Justin and Ricky or IPeru and Spab Rob. They can be put in a specific situation and they will do something completely different.
Hey guys, i want play new character for USF4. I consider Rolento or Decapre, beceause Hugo seem to be weak and I dont like Poison as character.
So which is potentially better Decapre or Rolento? And how would You rank them from 1-44?
Thanks
yun-ibuki-xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx-deejay
also decapre is better than rolento
LOL at the question, but to answer Decapre is definitely better than Rolento even post nerf.
I would rank Rolento between 35-40; Decapre I’m not too sure but probably 25-20.
this is like the highest level of theory fighter ive ever experienced, and im a bit disappointed by the rest of you guys buying into this nonsense. and no this isnt even about just me not havent dealt with something, this is literally hours of match footage of top level chun players only using those tools in highly specific circumstances. and the buttons come out on average less than once per round
the key difference is that i could at least have found video evidence of oni players using stomps to zone gief, or gief having a hard time dealing with oni far HP. the match was happening at a pretty high frequency at one point in time. i wouldnt have had to look far to find those tools in use
this crouch strong, crouch medium kick shit is completely theorized. neither one of these guys has said they use those buttons and they are hard for Yang to deal with. or come up with an applicable situation in footsies that would make it hard to deal with in the chun vs yang match up. the closest was when mal said crmp beating yang stand mp. but yang doesnt use that button like that anyway vs chun so its a moot point
the argument is literally “chun has this button with a good hitbox”. well so what? if it doesnt serve a new function in the match over the buttons that are more frequently used, why in the world would they be anything to consider when talking about a match?
crouch mk-short ranged so cant be used as a space control tool, and yang doesnt stick out high hitting buttons in this match with any regularity for it to be used as a counter poke. seems like it really doesnt have a good use here, so who the fuck cares about this button?
crouch mp- essentially occupies the same space on the screen as her sweep with less recovery. except it does 60 damage and doesnt knock down. in a match im outside of its range looking to whiff punish her sweep anyway, or im dive kicking over the top of it. this and her sweep basically have the same function vs yang, and im going to see the sweep more. so who the fuck cares about this button either?
but thats cool. you guys keep theorizing uses for obscure buttons and uses in situations that dont occur, and i’ll deal with the stuff that actually happens
I use cr.mp in almost every matchup. I only stop once the other player knows that they cant just do whatever they want and then I focus on other normals. In midrange when yang thinks he can throw out cr.mk, its a risk. Because chuns cr.mp blows that up, especially if you think shell use st.mp, and good luck throwing out normals if shes using cr.mk upclose youll get counter hit into ex legs or super. Some matchups cr.mp is more useful than others, I rarely use it against Shotos because I dont need to. But against Yang, Viper(to beat her cr.mk), Dudley, Yun, Bison, Balrog etc. That is extremely common. Just because you dont see Chuns use it doesnt mean it isnt useful in that situation. It just means those chuns arent doing it. You even have NON chun players telling you how good that tool is in matchups and you still wont budge. Be reasonable, not stubborn.
I use cr.mk even more. It is one of her most useful pokes when up close. I gave you several examples of applications for both but you just ignore it.
Anyway, I think its pretty clear that it has been demonstrated that Chun has the better ground game, and for this reason I cant help but to say the matchup is even.
So, another question:
Which character is easiest to learn with pretty good benefits in competition play?
Which is hardest and most complicated?
The primary use for c.MP is that the timing and distance you need to have to punish/bait it is significantly different from s.MP and c.HK. It’s a slower button that can mess with your timing to try to punish her more used buttons like c.HK or s.MP.
For instance as Akuma you have about a 5 frame window to press the sweep button to whiff punish s.MP. Since you can’t react to the button you have to basically predict based on the opponent when they are going to throw it out. Since s.MP is 7 frame start up and 2 active frames you need to wait till frames 9-14 to whiff punish it with Akuma’s sweep. c.MP throws a wrench into this. c.MP is a 10 frame start up with 5 active frames. Which means that if you press the sweep button with the timing to whiff punish s.MP you will actually be throwing out your sweep directly into the active frames of c.MP. Which will most likely cause you to get counter hit. If Chun has a charge and super this means you can be supered on counter hit.
The problem with Chun players only using c.HK and s.MP is that they are both 7 frame normals or that they hit at the same time. The only timing difference is that c.HK has two extra active frames, but there is a common timing to whiff punish both moves. c.MP with s.MP on the other hand there is no common timing. If you press your button at the timing to whiff punish s.MP you will get counter hit by c.MP. If you wait for the timing to whiff punish c.MP it is already too late to whiff punish s.MP. Which also means if Chun has charge you just throw out your sweep to be Ultraed (Which was my point about why I feel this match up has shifted)
That’s why I made the point about s.MP not being something you can punish on reaction because the move recovers too fast. If s.MP was the only button you had to worry about you could probably whiff punish it pretty consistently. It isn’t though and that’s what makes whiff punishing it difficult is that you have to predict not only when Chun will hit a button, but which button she will hit.
When you compare this to say Ryu, his c.HK and c.MK have a common whiff punish timing. They both are 5 frame normals and c.MK has more active frames. So the timing that whiff punishes c.MK also whiff punishes c.HK so it makes it pretty easy to punish those buttons. That’s why as Ryu you need to mix in your buttons with your Fireball because fireball and c.MK require two different counters and spacings.
more theory. great. my last post on the topic because you guys are making me think im talking over your heads when we discuss footsies
people dont measure frames in real matches when playing footsies. if a button whiffs, it whiffs. when i whiff punish a ranged normal the only thing that matters is that im out of range and the button i press in response is long and fast enough to hit you in recovery. it doesnt matter if its crouch mp, stand roundhouse, low roundhouse, whatever. i dont care how many recovery frames they have in a real match. all i need to know is that is missed, and im pressing something that catches the recovery
if you have real problems with whiff punishing and you find yourself guessing, try timing your button presses so that they come out at the first point of block stun if chun’s/whoever’s button were to make contact with you.
ive said this before, the only time a character should really lose on the ground is when they cant compete in range or walk speed. any advantage chun has on the ground vs yang is negated by yangs higher damge mid range conversions and the fact that he has a dive kick that she has to respect. it makes sticking out moves north of 25 total frames that cant stuff the dive kick more of a risk than they normally are (ie sweep, crouch mp)
all this talk of her cr.mp beating his cr.mk is more theory. when 2 moves occupy the same space on the screen or cover the same attack angle, you cant just say x beats y unless there is a massive difference in range or you have something that has a stupid hitbox that stays on the screen for a long time. think of the ae twins palms
are we assuming they hit their buttons at the same time? because yangs button is faster. am i just pressing buttons running into stuff? in that scenario just about anything would win. is she just pressing buttons running into my move? like i said anything would win. i dont know what the hitboxes look like on either move so i’ll take your word for it i guess.
i do know that im not just going to go out running into whatever chun has out because i took a bunch of blind guesses and didnt know how to stay out of range so i could whiff punish
Except frames do matter when trying to whiff punish something.
like i said, over your head. its not as important as you think it is. ever see justin or ricky whiff punish bison roundhouse with rufus sweep? magika?
i can consistently whiff punish hugos heavy clap. 5 frames of recovery.
I can easily whiff punish HP clap as well since it has like 20 something frames of startup which gives me a lot of time to react.
I’m not trying to get in on the whole theory fighter debate, I’ve already made my point on Chun/Yang, I’m just saying that frames do definitely matter in a match whether you count them or not.
It’s because they aren’t reacting to stuff, they are predicting it. But if you are having to predict it that means the opponent can mess with your timing.
I think it is only going over your head. It’s not theory when you look at the data and see clearly that its physically impossible to both whiff punish s.MP and avoid c.MP if pressed with the same timing. There is no overlap timing. Ok so no theory involved thus far. It’s physically impossible, PERIOD.
What can the frames tell us in this context? ** It tells us that we need to accurately identify which button was pressed in order to whiff punish it.**
If you have to make a decision it decreases your reaction time. PERIOD. This isn’t theory its known science that’s been known since the 1970s.
Twitch reaction time is about 9-11 frames
Choice reaction time is closer to 18-27
http://biae.clemson.edu/bpc/bp/lab/110/reaction.htm#Mean%20Times
And I am being generous with 18 frames since the average is closer to 23. Some people might be able to get down to around 16, but that’s pretty rare.
Twitch reaction is where you don’t give a damn what you are reacting to. You are just reacting. But the minute you actually have to make a decision your reaction time jumps up by quite a bit.
So do you get what I am getting at? If you have two buttons that require two different responses and you have only about 14 frames to react to one button? It means you aren’t punishing it on reaction if you aren’t sure the button is even coming in the first place.
So you have to use other methods to stop that button, but if your opponent simply has to react to your buttons while you have to pre-emptively use yours it gives them a huge advantage in the neutral game. So that’s why as Akuma, you are at a button disadvantage.
Horrible example. 5 frames of recovery…and about 27 frames before you even get to those 5 frames. It literally has 24 frames of start up. You can react to it before it goes active! Coupled with a large hurt box of course you can whiff punish it! The size of the window isn’t what matters it is how much time you have to be able to position yourself and react to it.
I mean I can whiff punish a move with 1 frame of recovery if I had 30 frames to react to it. That’s what I do in KOF all the time to anti-air jump whiffs.
I have to address a few more points.
Except you do have to care what missed when your response is dependent entirely on “what button missed”. Because as I stated the timing is different depending on what button was pressed.
If I press sweep at the time that would punish s.MP when Chun actually used c.MP instead I just extended my hurtbox and will probably get hit by c.MP.
What you are saying only works if there is one timing to worry about.
Which again changes depending on what button was pressed.
Which IMO is ignoring other important factors. I can even point to one that’s easy to understand.
Let’s say you make it so two characters have only one button. The button is identical, but character A does 400 damage with his and character B does 200 damage. Who has the advantage? Well character A does. Because he needs half the hits to win the match that character B does. So if both players are equally skilled, the person playing Character A will win more often.
So reward per hit is important as well and can directly translate to winning matches.
Another advantage is if I have a button that completely ignores your button. Let’s say character A’s button goes over low buttons and character B has no good pokes besides low buttons. Character A now has an advantage that character B must press his button either before character A or after character A’s button is no longer after. While character B only has to ensure that his button hits. Not as strong of an advantage as others, but still an advantage.
I just can’t agree with the ideal that only walk speed or range are the defining factors. Reward, variable timing, etc. are all advantages as well that can put characters at tangible advantages on the ground. Some advantages are stronger than others, but they all can still play a role.
I’ve had good chun li players use cr.mk to stuff low tiger shot. Also I’m pretty sure some chuns use c.mp xx super. ( might be thinking of stand)
#throws petrol onto fire #
i dont know how to explain the concepts any further to you. players press different buttons and youre thrown off by it or whatever. im not.
the hugo example was an extreme illustration of how just looking at raw frame data isnt the end all answer to anything. youre tossing up all these numbers and math problems around like footsies is not a completely abstract concept.
theres literally dozens of other factors to consider. as i said the concept seems to be sailing right by you guys because frame data.
but whatever. more equations bro. it makes you look fancy
IMO whiff punishing is an aspect of reaction. If a normal is too fast to react to but you are hitting them when they whiff then that is just out poking them. Anticipation is a big part of footsies but I categorize anticipation as separate from whiff punishes.
You just proved our point with what you said. There being so many different factors is exactly what makes frame data so important foe whiff punishing.
Random example to show what I’m saying
Move 1 frame data: 8/4/13
Move 2 frame data: 13/6/6
These moves cover roughly the same ranges.
Now do you see why the frame data is important? Now you need two completely different timings to react to the move to whiff punish.
The reason why those reaction numbers are important, is because if they switch those two moves up without being predictable then you aren’t going to be able to mentally confirm which move was performed AND have time to react accordingly. Only way you’re reacting correctly is if you have a hard read on what move he did.