Tier lists though by nature are not supposed to take opponents skill into account (although I know that’s unrealistic, it’s still supposed to be a strictly mathematical number). Also a 6-4 to me is always winnable without mistakes, my tools still work but are somewhat negated by my opponents better options.
Throw in Ultra’s and you sort of have a whole new scenario for some characters. For example (sorry I keep using Sagat but it’s to prove my point). I feel like a match like Chun li is potentially slightly in Sagats favour at the start of the round but once Chun get’s Ultra it’s a clear 6-4 for me. it’s kind of hard to quantify that in a single number.
To me, bad matches are all about spacing and tool interaction. Like my example above, Abel doesn’t suddenly lose his ability to mix up the shit out of Rufus.
I meant to answer sooner but was at work I dont mean to be disrespectful I just disagree.
My bad it is a hard knockdown, but I think your reaching here. His dp hitbox was already big it didn’t need to get any bigger as it already had a tendency to hit divekicks that went behind already/auto corrected a lot. I dont remember a larger dp hitbox being requested? And if you gave the reversals in the game the same properties of Onis do you really think anyone would ever spend the bar to fadc it? Every other shotos offensive upside to fadcing their dp on first hit is better then onis, and they can at least do the japanese method and confirm off the launch animation and then release or dash the focus attack. It seems like they made onis dp all convoluted just for the sake of making it hard to use.
I was talking mostly about 3 bar combos, in that everybody can do big damage now. But aside from that I can think of a couple of characters that had damage buffs, yuns normals got damage buffs, roses normals got damage buffs, bison getting stand mp special cancellable gives him better punishes now, akuma getting his stand far fierce gives him easier acess to u2 meterless teleport cancel combos, dhaslims normals got damage buffs. Theres probably more but those came to mind immediately because those were bad matchups for oni to begin with.
Doing 20-60 less stun on a 4 bar combo is pretty significant, that can mean the difference in getting the stun or being left with no meter and having to get a reset off. Which in itself is fine I guess but its not like onis offense flowed that well anyway, there are all these gaps and holes in his series that dont lend itself well to getting resets and stuns. A lot of onis oki into stun stuff was just knock down in the corner into fake cross up which as time went on people learned and never blocked wrong again. Like look at yun or dudley or makoto or gouken, they have much better resets and flow to their mixups, oni doesn’t have that kind of thing unless you count getting hit by that fraudulent cross up slash a bunch as a legit mix up. Also any string into slash is “safe” in the sense that your not -3 punishable, but the fact that your -2 point blank next to your opponent means your putting yourself in the opponents 50/50, also forfitting the offensive advantage you had unless you want to continue pressure unsafely and dp/stomp/grab. This means that anystring into slash isnt a reliable way to get your chip in. Which is fine because from the beginning oni never had the tools to just continue chipping someone into openning up (bison adon balrog )
Again my mistake I got my numbers all wrong, but in the end his stomps are still very punishable just worse now. People still think stomps are a good legit move when they are so bad it makes my head hurt. Focus bait and if done point blank you can punish super hard if you just stand block it to reduce the push back. If you space it out with a block string then stomp you can reaction focus forward and still punish hard.
His sweep is faster but its like in that weird range of being fast but not fast enough to punish anything. About his fireballs…this is from a buff request thread from our oni forums courtesy of cdrive:“Removal of all active frames of regular fireball (all versions) As explained in the other thread Oni already has an absolutely terrible fireball, coupled with the fact that it has the punishability of a missed ultra on whiff (57-60 total frames per fireball compared to 24-27 for every other shoto) is adding insult to injury. There is absolutely no reasoning behind this and it should be removed.” I really think the buffs to electric were meant to mess with us.
The more random the conversion was (the more light attacks you need to string together to reach a special cancel fadc) the more toned down onis damage is which is fine. His pokes are major focus bait which is why he has a hard time against people with long quick focuses. Im aware that a lot of peoples oki game got wrecked by dwu, but some (cammy ibuki yun cough cough) got hit less/have the tools to adapt and make new stuff. Back in 2012 when oni first came out a lot of people hit the training room. I think what we all found was that off of onis knock downs he doesnt have the frames, spacing, jump arc, or hitbox on his jump normals to make anything happen. Unless oni has new consistent ways to combo into sweep to set up something im not aware off then idk. I want to be proven wrong. His safe jumps being taken away hurt oni a lot because he doesnt necessarily have the tools to get back in safely(looking at you bison matchup)
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My little brother who mains like half the cast and comes up with tech for them on the regular, dicked around with oni for like 2 days trying to come up with dirty shit he can do to people for his oki. I come home and hes just shaking his head and says:this nigga aint got shit, he has the hitboxes to make things unblockable and ambiguious but he just doesnt have the time(frames after throw or stomp) or positioning or jump arc to land anything. His throw makes it so that by the time hes in position to jump where he needs to the other guy is waking up dping you in the asshole. Thats why there werent that many videos of Oni setups, because i don’t believe there is anything to be found.
In 2012 he could combo into u2 off of meaty ch back mp done on the last frame, you could also combo u2 off of a spaced jab in certain combos. I don’t think ive ever seen those set ups used in regular play, let alone tourney play. I think the only time was with sanford when he ch mk tatsu a gouken in the corner into u2 full animation, that was pretty gangsta. Even if you could do those types of set ups consistently then why would you pick u1 to combo into over u2? I think this type of stuff is in the same realm as being able to combo into kens u2 off of jab. If you can do it consistently in real play your godlike and the next best oni.
honestly I blame a lot of the lack of Oni information online on his character design. Like the character as a whole is designed around unsafe stuff that looks safe, until you really get into the nitty gritty and find out how punishable all his options are. Sooo if you were to do a write up on matchup specifics its unavoidable that you kind of reveal how to blow oni up in that matchup. Of course it would behoove the oni players to not share matchup information lest people on the other forums discover just how punishable oni really is. If you look at the Dealing With Oni's Punishability thread I do some write ups and go into depth on how the other char can blow oni up, i dont really care. The way I see it the more people know how bad oni is the more people will stop losing to nonsense stuff and maybe oni will finally get buffed.
(sorry this part im going to rant a bit)
How many people really know oni? like actually picked him up for a couple months? like literally none of the commenters on stream know shit about oni accept maybe the east coast guys thanks to sanford and even then thats iffy. A lot of the time the people that speak on oni just look at some youtube videos, look at the raw frame data and play around with him in training room for a bit and then conclude hes fine, without any real context. /end rant
You’re not losing 20-60 stun on 4 bar combos because of scaling you’re probably only losing 40 tops.
crMP - B+MP - sHP - LK Slash - FADC - crMP - B+MP - sHP - LK Slash - FADC - crMP - B+MP - sHP - HK Tatsu [Stun Lost in USF4 = 20total]
crMP - crHP - LK Slash - FADC- crMP - B+MP - sHP - LK Slash - FADC - crMP - B+MP - sHP - HK Tatsu [Stun lost in USF4 = 24] That’s it. 24stun lost on one of the most common 4 bar combos for Oni.
LK Slash - FADC - crMP - B+MP - sHP - LK Slash - FADC - crMP - B+MP - sHP - LK Slash (a bad combo but one that might actually get used and includes 3 slashes) [Stun Lost in USF4 = 34stun]
LK Slash - FADC - B+MP - LK Slash - FADC - B+MP - LK Slash (Never happen in a real match, terrible combo that is only being used because it’s the lowest possible scaling you can get with 4 bars to include 3 slashes.) [Stun Lost = 48stun]
You literally have to do the worst optimized combo to even break 40 stun lost. It’s basically nothing lost.
As for DP fadc(at least on block): EX DP FADC is now a viable safe reversal. It didn’t get it’s blockstun reduced, previously you didn’t have that option. I agree that the DP fadc on hit combos lost really really sucks.
No offense but everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, in this post is COMPLETELY wrong. Just like every other fireball that has a limited duration (Sakura, Cody, Dhalsim, Dan, Chun, Juri) the active frames have NO BEARING on the total frame count. It’s a totally separate entity. The frame the move becomes active is the same frame you start recovering. So for example:
Sakura:
Lvl1 Fireball - 15/71/33 is the frame data. The move isn’t 15+71+33 = 119F total. The move is infact 48F total.
Your statement that “Oni’s fireball is 57-60F total compared to 24-27F for every other shoto” is completely false because in fact, Oni’s fireball total frame count is 47F for non-electrics. 1F faster than Ken’s.
If you are comparing Oni’s electric fireball to other shotos regular fireballs you are still comparing false / misleading information because you are saying he has 57-60f total frames (infact it’s 50-67F for TOTAL frames) but counting ONLY the recovery frames for the shoto’s other fireballs (and not mentioning Evil Ryu/Akuma’s red fireballs AND using the wrong frame data anyways.). If you are counting the recovery of the other characters fireballs yous hould be counting the recovery of the electric. NOT the total frame count of the electric. The recovery of the electric is 24-36F depending on strength. That is a MUCH less misleading comparison 24-36F recovery for Oni’s electrics vs other shotos having a range of 29F-33F (if you only count regular), if we include the red fireballs from Evil Ryu/Akuma the range increases to 25-44!
So to sum up
Oni’s fireball frame data
Regular - 43-47F total, 13F startup 30-34F recovery
Electric - 50-67F total. 25-31F startup 24-36F recovery
Every other shoto combined:
Regular - 40-47F total, 11-14F startup, 29-33F recovery
Shakunetsu - 50-69F total, 19-25F startup, 25-44F recovery
Sure looks like Oni falls right in line. Only noticeable is the startup on his electric and the fact his regular has limited active frames. His fireball game ain’t good, but that has less to do with the frame data (though his blockstun IMO could be upped by 1F on normal FBs) and more to do with the fact his fireball has limited range unless charged / ex / commit to electric. His fireball game is probably the worst of the shotos but I wouldn’t put it as the worst of the characters with fireballs, probably just near the bottom 5 though. Dan/Cody/Sakura certainly got worse overall fireball games. And Deejay has issues with everything EXCEPT the fireball. Rose and Dhalsim’s fireballs ain’t so great but their other ways of controlling the screen make their fireball game stronger (normals, reflects, slides, teleport, ect)
Comboing off of meaty or counterhit into U2 wouldn’t be nearly as hard as the U2 meaty. It’d be pretty damn reliable as far as meaties go. B+MP is 6F active and +6F on hit. U1 is 9F startup. That gives you a 3F leeway without it being a counterhit. I agree it’s probably not as consistent as U2 but I’m sure there is some uses for it, just saying you should experiment more.
The claim his pokes are focus bait is such a BS cop out that I’ve been over before half a dozen times. Unless you are referring to F+HP/F+HK his pokes are no more focus bait than anyone else, and less so than some.
sLK and F+LK are great pokes that are too fast for most people to react to with focus since it needs to be nearly frame perfect and only if you are already charging the focus, it’s too fast to reaction focus.
sMK breaks armor if you get the first hit and even if you don’t the 2nd hits reach can be spaced to be outside of a good number of the casts focus range, though not the farther ones like Cody/Evil Ryu/Blanka/Fei.
crMP requires almost frame perfect timing to counter with focus and can be special buffered if it’s focused.
crMK has the 2nd farthest reach of all shoto crMKs though only barely. (It’s outclassed by Evil Ryu but otherwise it’s a tiny bit farther than Ryu/Akuma/Ken) and can be special buffered. It’s probably the closest to “focus bait” of all of these normals as it’s got a lot of recovery if you don’t cancel it.
sMP is a solid button with only 11F recovery, very hard to whiff punish or focus, and can be special canceled to fireball if focused.
B+MP can be buffered to sHP to beat focus
F+MK can be done from outside of the range of most focus attacks and is hard to react to given it’s 11F startup. Probably the 2nd cloest to “focus bait” but still fast to recover if focused means that the opponent needs to be REALLY on top of their reactions to release focus in time to punish the focus or even to not get thrown right after the step kick recovers. You don’t seen Ken players calling F+MK “focus bait” and it’s got even longer before the move recovers than Oni (if you hit on the first active frame).
F+MP breaks armor but is slow
Oni’s jabs have great hitboxes and are 3F and chainable. The range isn’t exceptional but it’s not bad either.
None of these normals are any more “focus bait” than Ryu’s which are never considered “focus bait”
spot on about the fireballs i retract my statement there.
Umm pretty much any focus crumple comes off pre emptive focusing? done in the range where the optimal normals are being thrown they crumple the recovery of said normals to make the opponent stop pressing buttons, this clears the lane for a dash in for pressure. I dont think any focus is fast enough to crumple anything on reaction. His special cancellable normals if cancelled into fireball often get hit by the focus before the fireball comes out or even trades. So normal into fireball isnt something very reliable to toss at someone focusing in the midrange. What about special cancelling into tatsu? if you guessed wrong and the opponent backdashed early you could be -13 at worst on block or -1 if he blocked the very last hit of the tatsu. Too much risk there, then maybe cancelling into slash? the start up on his lk slash will catch focus done close but if spaced out will wiff. His mk slash is hard to space right and the start up is too long+throwable on block.
His 2 hit normals are focus bait because the range on the first hit is so short. The hitbox on the first hit is tiny, you have to be standing within half a box of oni to be hit out and at that range there are better options to blow up focus. Anything outside of half box and the 2nd hit gets absorbed and you get crumpled. I cant count how many times the opponent crumpled me off a misjudged stand mk.
you can also crumple him after a blocked mk or stand lk or stand mp into fireball but thats a fireball block string issue pretty much all shotos have so i dont make a big deal about it.
Ryu is a poor comparison because his normals dont reach out to the range where you would wanna focus in. Its his fireballs your working around not his normals. Though a fun game to play is to walk up to a ryus sweep range and charge focus and see how long before he presses sweep and gets crumpled.
Even with pre-emptive focusing the release is 11F (for most characters, some it’s slower.). You have a small (IIRC 2F) extra frames due to the armor absorb. The timing to focus crumple anything ~12F or faster from the first active frame is extremely tight. Even things ~15F from the first active frame are difficult to focus crumple consistently in real matches.
If the opponent is pre emptive focusing: walk up and kara throw him. Oni has a fantastic kara throw range, one of the best. Also you can just simply let them dash out. They either give up space (back dash) or you can punish their forward dash. If they release the focus you can potentially DP it on reaction (difficult but not impossible) if you are close enough it might result in blocking.
Again, Oni is no more “focus bait” than anyone else who plays footsies inside of focus attack ranges (E.G. basically everyone)
Walk up kara throw if hes reasonably close, if hes farther then i wont count on onis poor forward walk speed to get me there in time.
That is actually what I and most ppl do. You simply deal and let the other guy focus do whatever. If they focus back dash a lot then fine you push them to the corner more, if they focus forward you can possibly punish depending on your reactions+character match up. If they get their focus lvl 2 then theyre positive in frames on you and your on the back foot but o well.
I just dont like it when people say oni has great pokes but a lot of his mid range poke game you are relegated to walk up block walk up block.
But he DOES have great pokes. And nothing you’ve said takes away from that. His pokes are no more focus bait than many characters who also has great pokes. Bison has great pokes, his stuff is no less “focus bait” than Oni’s. Fei Long has some of the best pokes and I’d argue some of them are MORE focus bait than Oni’s (like Fei’s crHP and far HP). Makoto and Gouken have fantastic pokes as well. These are all characters with great pokes just as likely to get focus crumpled as Oni.
Against Rolento, st.hp/fwd+hp are godly and beat out mostly all of Rolento’s buttons. Rolento’s cr.mk has pretty bad range, so he can’t abuse it like shotos and Yang can in the mathchup, which makes it a lot harder to control the space Dudley wants to be in.
Rolento does have st.hp to work with of course, but most of the time you’re only getting 50 damage and not to mention it is very easily whiff punished thanks to its long recovery. Also, since his st.hp rarely gets both hits (especially on Dudley) he can fish for focus attacks very easily which makes it even easier for him to get in.
Once Dudley gets into j.hk range, you have to pray that your anti air works, or else its ggs for that round. As soon as Dudley gets in, the round is almost surely over. Dudley has some of the best pressure in the game, couple that with his amazing corner carry and huge damage, and you have everything that Rolento struggles with in a single character.
Rolento’s saving grace (like in most matchups) is that both of his ultra’s are amazing and grant easy comeback potential. Other than that, you have to rely heavily on annoying Dudley and hope he drops a combo or lets you out of pressure somehow.
Aside from the focus thing, which i dont think ill agree on, it might be a level of play thing, after a certain level focus might be a non issue.
I just have to ask because its bothering me: what do you think makes a great poke? Because to me a lot of onis normals are garbage in footsys aside from stand mp, stand lk, and crouch mk(for grapplers obv f+hp and f+hk is good but they have ways around those)
Is it space control? from either perceived threat or actual, normal stuffing and limiting character movement?
Is it wiff punishing?
If oni has great pokes then why does he lose so bad to other chars that have great pokes and control the mid range?
Ill reword it a bit differently: if you described oni to a pro player
+great pokes
+controls midrange well
+easy execution
+high/consistent damage and stun output
+now defensively viable with dp fadc
+2nd best anti air normals in the game.
-950 health
-900 stun
-not many mix ups
Why wouldnt anyone play him? He has everything that makes a top tier right? Why is it like pulling teeth when you try to get anyone to play this guy.
Your wasting your breath fox. Everyone here thinks Oni is a near flawless god, aside from his fireballs not being the best maybe. Yet none of them would touch him with a ten foot pole. I never truly had a main character in SF4 (one of the many reasons I quit), so I actually played around quite a bit with characters. As in actual offline matches over a substantial period of time, not just messing around in training mode. Jumped through many mains. Amazingly it gives you a lot of perspective. People would rather talk out of their asses though.
I play both, blocking works pretty well. As Dudley I just offensive crouch tech all reversals that are 4f and under. It’s not 7-3. Mash roll without the follow in up the middle of block strings/pressure without the follow up, mix up the defense w backdash/focus backdash, stand tech, crouch tech, or just block. I have to work pretty hard to open up a good ropento actually, so yeah it’s fair that when I corner him he has to guess on wakeup
all rolento really needs is better walkspeed and a better anti air
IDK man, its pretty damn bad, and blocking only works for so long (especially against Dudley) and back rolling doesn’t work well in the middle of blockstrings AND puts you closer to the corner.
Also, not sure if I should trust your Judgement when I’m pretty sure you’re the one who claimed Dudley/Sagat wasn’t that bad for Sagat…
What about him?Did he say really that Sagat/Dudley is 6/4 in Sagat´s favour? If yes, then I wouldn´t trust his judgment, too. Or maybe he was just trolling?
Also weird that you can´t trust his judgment, because of giving a wrong matchup number.
Sometimes it gets the point in this thread where I think folk just don’t want to work (at all) for a win. All of their options should be good and if not - well fuck it’s a bad match and my character sucks.
When you play higher level, you’re supposed to outsmart the other guy with what you’ve got, not complain about what they’ve got. Half the dudes here probably don’t make it past 60 seconds on the timer before self destructing and proclaiming Oni sucks because my 4th wake up stomp got blocked and my slash should be + on block, safe and lead to combo.