Nice argument.
Add me too next time you’re on. I really need to fight the people you’ve been fighting because the notion that Akuma sucks now is just wild to me. Not as good as before? Fine. Not top tier anymore? I can even give you that, but he’s ass now? I just don’t see it man. It’s more demanding to win with him but he’s still a big ol’ tool box with supreme mobility.
Sweep nerf sucks and I was the main person complaining about it, but the move is still good. Zoning got nerfed but he can still do it well. He still has good aa, can teleport out of situations, and even though dwu sucks (main reason I don’t like ultra), he can still utilize vortex if they don’t use it and free style a decent mix up/apply good pressure if they do.More times than not if st.hk and st.hp don’t work well vs a character he at least has an advantage in the area of zoning, mobility, range, footsies, oki, etc. In some cases multiple categories if not at least one.
I’m not convinced that he isn’t top 10, but if he isn’t he’s top 15 and that’s not a bad character. With that said I agree if they returned his sweep to before that’d be great, and/or a far fierce hitbox extension.
This is nothing. Did you see early UMvC3 tier list “discussions”? It was basically people with ≥ 1/2 brain attempting to have a reasonable, logical conversation with people who where like “Everyone is using Wesker therefore he’s the best character in the game”. If one where a member of the first group one probably would have had greater success trying to demolish a building via headbutts than one would convincing the second group that first order optimal (FOO) strategies (usually the convergence of good enough and easy as shit) rarely end up being the best thing EVAR!!! It’s nice to see that in the several years since as the prophecies of the Zero army have (tragically) come to fruition that the Besker arguments have taken a hike. Since the “Results Matter” voices don’t seem nearly as loud for USFIV I doubt it will take quit as long for that to work itself out here as it did for UMvC3.
I remember when 2012 first came out and a few people started to notice that cammy was really good, the cammy mains went fucking nuts and just repeated over and over that she wasn’t good because she wasn’t winning tournaments yet. Then kbrad and chirithy happened and suddenly they didn’t have any arguments, didn’t take long then either.
They are, shut the fuck up
What the fuck does this even mean?
Kappa
Yes.
Why did everyone drop Oni?
Not sure why but he doesn’t feel as good as before in this version.
He got more nerfs than buffs in the end.
Hard to use a banned character.
In all serious, I guess people didn’t like his weaker oki and less overall damage
Bolded Nerfs… take note that the buffs he got outside of his focus attack are not that great.
Oni
• Vitality reduced by 50 (1000 → 950)
• Crouching HK start-up reduced by 1 frame (9F → 8F); recovery reduced by 1 frame (24F → 23F)
• 6+MK start-up reduced by 2 frames (13F → 11F)
• Focus Attack hitbox expanded forward
• L Gorai Hadoken total frames reduced by 2 (54F → 52F)
• M Gorai Hadoken total frames reduced by 2 (61F → 59F)
• H Gorai Hadoken total frames reduced by 2 (69F → 67F)
• L Sekisei Jiraiken no longer airborne on 1st frame; throw invincible from 1st frame
• M Sekisei Jiraiken 1F invincibility removed
• H Goshoryuken complete invincibility reduced by 3 frames (8F → 5F); strike invincibility frames changed from 9-10F to 6-7F
• All versions of Goshoryuken can now be EX Focus-cancelled on the 1st hit, on hit or block
• L, M and H Goshoryuken → EX Focus Cancel → Forward Dash is now -5 on block; First hit causes hard knockdown
• L Rakan Dantojin damage reduced by 10 (120 → 110); stun damage reduced by 20 (150 → 130)
• EX Rakan Dantojin disadvantage on block reduced (-10F → -9F)
• H and EX Rakan Dantojin rear hurtbox just before the attack starts reduced to throwbox area
• Meido Gohado (Anti-ground UC1) non-cinematic damage increased by 25 (350 → 375); start-up reduced by 2 frames (11F → 9F)
• Meido Gozanku (Air UC1) start-up reduced by 3 frames (14F → 11F)
• Tenchi Sokaigen (UC2) command changed from 41236 x2+PPP to 63214 x2+PPP
Whereas you look at other AE2012-midtier-at-best characters
Evil Ryu
• Vitality increased by 50 (900 → 950)
• Crouching MK disadvantage on block reduced by 1 frame (-4F → -3F)
• Crouching HK start-up reduced by 1 frame (7F → 6F)
• Target Combo 1 (Close Standing MP → HP) can now be done from Far Standing MP
• Senbukyaku (6+MK) hitbox greatly expanded downward
• HK Ryusokyaku start-up reduced by 1 frame (26F → 25F)
• L, M and H Shoryuken → EX Focus Cancel → Forward Dash is now -5 on block
and
Rose
• Forward Dash total frames reduced by 1 frame (21F → 20F)
• Close Standing MK hitbox slightly expanded downward
• Crouching LP damage increased by 10 (20 → 30)
• Crouching LK damage increased by 10 (30 → 40)
• Crouching MP damage increased by 10 (60 → 70)
• L Soul Spiral forward movement distance slightly increased
• L, M and H Soul Spiral damage increased by 10 (100 → 110)
• EX Soul Spiral damage increased by 10 (120 → 130); stun increased by 100 (100 → 200); invincibility time increased by 2 frames (11F → 13F);** throw invincibility removed**
• L, M, H and EX Soul Spiral can now be used in air combos
• M Soul Spark start-up reduced by 2 frames (22F → 20F)
• H Soul Spark start-up reduced by 2 frames (29F → 27F)
• Illusion Spark (UC1) start-up reduced by 2 frames (12F → 10F)
• Soul Satellite (UC1) command input changed from 214214+PPP to 214214+KKK; recovery increased by 2 frames (2F → 4F)
and if any of these three characters got screwed by delayed wake up, it’s Oni.
nerfs to his dp while giving him convoluted fadc properties no other reversal has to deal with (only fadcable on block first hit, but if hit and fadc then it soft knocked downs instead of launches, ryu, evil, and dan can launch with theirs into ultra if fadc first hit, akuma can combo off of his, and evil can combo with 3 barsif fadc first hit). He is still punishable by most if the cast ultra n super full animation if he fadc back thx to his backdash and no range dp.
nerf to his health while damage potential has gone up universally for the rest of the cast
nerf to his stun output in compensation for red focus combos.
going from -4 and 1 invinvible frame on mk stomp to -6 and no invincible frame
Buffs to things that no one asked for, his step kick hitbox is still bad but faster now, his sweep catches what its supposed to still, and it wasnt the recovery to his electric fireballs that got you jumped in on it was the start up.
his neutral game didnt get any stronger and his unblockables and safejumps got wrecked by dwu.
oh and -9 on block instead of -10 from hk slash is such a game changer (not).
With all these nerfs the biggest thing imo is that he didnt get anything that changes the way hes played. The way oni plays is the exact same as a year and a half ago, everything you do now is the same as 2012+red focus if you dont wanna deal with execution. No new combos, no neat resets or knockdown setups. If youve been playing him from day 1 hes boring by now add that to the fact that theres no community for him and his forums +videos are dead and you have a dead char.
Oh yeah, I remember now that they mauled his DP. Can’t believe they did that.
I dunno, I might not be able to make my point here but I think 7-3 for some characters isn’t the same. At a tourney last night I watched a lesser skilled Abel (still a good player) maul a higher skilled Rufus once he got his shit going. To be fair in the run back later was the opposite but I feel Abel’s can gain momentum in a bunch of his matches.
On the flip side if I’m playing Juri with Sagat, I can’t do anything, that to me is more like a 7-3 where my tools are just completely shut down and I’m relying on the other playing fucking up. I feel characters with high mix up/damage/reset/stun potential can never truly have matches THAT bad. I remember somebody saying a while back they thought that Honda went 7-3 against Viper I was like - that’s just not possible.
DP is a HARD knockdown not soft. Also his DP is still the largest hitbox in the game (and it actually got LARGER in USF4!)
Damage potential that went up usually relied on extremely specific situations or 3 bar combos. Not that many characters got damage buffs that are consistently usable like Rose. Still a sucky nerf that probably wasn’t needed.
Minor change. Lost 20 stun on LK Slash. He still has some of the best consistently usable damage output and solid stun output. Probably the 2nd highest hitconfirm damage in the game behind Evil Ryu. Probably the best meterless footsie conversions as B+MP buffered to sHP or sHP buffered to LK Slash or crMP buffered to LK Slash (doesn’t combo but is a safe frame trap that does 27 chip) are all extremely viable.
Kind of mixing up your history / lying out right here. There was NEVER a time he was both -4F and 1F invincible on MK Stomp. AE2012 he was -6F but 1F invincible. USF4 arcade he was -4F but had no invincibility. USF4 console he was -6F had no invincibility.
Faster sweep and step kick were pretty common requests. However I do agree that the step kick hitbox was MORE commonly requested. I don’t recall anyone asking for faster elec fireball recovery but there was probably a couple. Certainly more wanted faster regular fireball.
Neutral game was already extremely solid with one of the best set of anti airs and great conversions and pokes. True it didn’t get BETTER though. Also the DWU thing did kind of screw over everyone’s safe jumps and unblockables. All I can say is: Hit the training room.
Agreed. Useless buff.
Probably just need to explore Oni more in training room. Oni IS weaker now, which is stupid, but I don’t think it’s a significant amount. I bet you he has at least a few new ways to combo into his heavily buffed U1 using counterhits or meaties. I think that the main reason people left Oni is the same reason it took years to get people to play him and the same reason suddenly everyone is flocking to Evil Ryu.
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I think that’s where most of the problems with matchup numbers come from, everyone has a different definition of what a 7-3 is. I don’t consider a matchup where the opponent needs to fuck up a 7-3, I consider that an 8-2, 7-3 is still in the realm of possibility to win with almost no mistakes and a perfectly applied gameplan in my opinion. Abel vs Rufus could be considered a 7-3 by that standard, while something like Juri vs Sagat could end up being an 8-2.
Either way, we should really try and get a definition for matchup numbers to try and really define matchups now.
Yeah, once the FGC hive mind decides something you don’t start asking questions. Just roll with it.
E.Ryu good. Drop the fuck out of Oni.
I’ve done that before but no one was happy because of LoyalSol’s math breakdown showing that anything beyond a 6-4 is basically unwinnable and 6-4 is borderline.
10-0 A significantly less skilled player can beat a significantly greater skilled player with little to no effort. The only chance equal skilled player has is if the advantaged player has some sort of hardware fault or just stops playing.
9-1 Extremely lopsided matchup Two players of equal skill will almost always go to the advantaged character barring some sort of random scenario or pure luck.
8-2 Very difficult matchup, requires the advantaged player to mess up in several times for the disadvantaged player to win.
7-3 More difficult matchup, most likely will go to advantaged player but winnable if the advantaged player makes a major mistake at a key moment.
6-4 Difficult matchup, one character has a distinct advantage in tools but could easily swing either way in an matchup of evenly skilled players.
5-5 Even matchup (duh)
I’m one of the (few?) people who thinks that a 6-4 means a lot, and is actually pretty hard to overcome.
Anything over 6-4 gets exponentially harder and is extremely hard to overcome.
My gauges for matchup numbers:
6-4: Rose/Ryu
7-3: Dudley/Rolento
8-2: Sagat/Gief, Juri/Sagat, 2012 Blanka/Hawk
9-1: ST Honda/Gief
As you can see, even a 6-4 is pretty brutal, but still winnable if you are straight better than your opponent. 7-3 and above usually relies on your opponent messing up AND being better than your opponent.