Yeah except you’d be looking more at a crMK from that is +6F on hit +3F on block if you wanted it to combo and be a true block string from max range.
adding the the shoryuken discussion from earlier. I also hate how bad they are as AAs in this game but so good as reversals to stop offense.
One change I’d always wanted for this game is extra damage if you hit your opponent out of the air (and the combo counter is at 0).
Let’s say my DP does 120 damage. If I combo into it or use it as a reversal between my opponent’s string it’ll do 120 damage. Great, whatever. BUT if I anti-air someone with it have it to extra damage, maybe say 150 or even 180. This atleast rewards me for a successful anit-air and teaches my opponent to not jump. This change could also be applied system-wide to normal attacks as well. If Balrog or Guile hit you with cr.hp let them get some real damage off of it instead of the measly bit they do now. This bonus damage could be a percentage increase like counter-hits, it could be individually added per attack, or it could be a flat number. But I think this change really would help improve AA’s and keep the game on the ground without inadvertently buffing reversal DPs.
Right now there’s not enough risk to jumping, the damage I take from an anti-air is insignificant compared to the potential damage I’d get from a jump in combo. Also there are so many derpy jump-ins in this game including dive kicks, Dudley j.hk, Sakura j.hk/j.hp, etc. AA’s in this game need serious buffs.
Except that is EXACTLY the opposite of what Capcom wants. If you look at almost every DP or anti air normal in the game it does reduced damage on later frames (e.g. the ones that’d be used vs an airborne opponent.)
Ryu close HP is 100 dmg 200stun on the frames used for combos but on the frames it can anti air it drops to 80/150.
Sakura crouching HP is 90/120 on the first 2F active but after that (when her arm fully extends) it drops to 80/100
Guile’s crHP drops from 100/200 on the first 2F active to 70/150 after that.
ect ect
It is already the case with Sagat, his uppercut does 120 but if you do it early as an AA it will do 160 or so. But of course his uppercut will trade numerous of times and he does less dmg with his f.hk.
It’s one of the few examples of it working that way (also Cammy’s DP), and it’s like that less for being better as an antiair but more to nerf his combo damage. It was the opposite in vanilla. After the early frames his TU dropped down to 80 damage for all versions. HP TU was 170 damage 200stun on early frames 80 damage 100stun after that.
roundtable discussion was enlightening. they had a lot of the same complaints abut how the game works that I read in the threads here every week. good to verify that it’s not just SRK posters (who I’m guessing are mostly midrange skill level players with a few outliers), but also the very top players of the game who have complaints about how good defense is, skewed risk-reward, and generally weak toolsets for many characters. they even complain that crouch tech is too good/difficult to deal with when I’ve read several posters here say “that’s old tech, there’s already solutions, just get better” or whatever.
When Daigo says he just holds down back now it says a lot.
I believe they do this not to specifically hurt AAs, but to make it so you have to time them as late as possible. It’s supposed to be a “skill” thing, like “wow that guy does his DPs super deep!”, they try to reward you for taking the risk of doing it later instead of doing it as early as possible for less damage. I kind of understand their reasoning but yeah it ends up not working well when AAs trade all the time.
I feel like trades happen too often in this game and it’s even worse when you compound the fact that a lot of characters can combo off the trades. I really liked it when AAs were stronger back in Vanilla, it was just the derpy trade into ultras (Sagat, Ryu) that needed changing.
Funny how people have been saying offense sucked for years, but Capcom thought offense was too good when you read the stuff about ultra. It’s odd the perception of the game is so different between those who play it competitively and those who don’t
for ryu cr.mk fireball i’d prefer they just lower the startup speed of HP fireball while increasing the blockstun(to compensate for it hitting earlier)+travel speed. I don’t think it should a true blockstring at all ranges, but i think nerfing raw low forward is inelegant.
Has Capcom even confirmed that they’ll do a post-evo hotfix or balance patch? We’ve all been rumoring and assuming they will, likely with the disc release, but have they said so? I’d be kind of pissed if this is the final version of the game we end up playing for years.
That’s because even among the competitive community they tend to complain more about offensive options than defensive options. Also the word “broken” gets thrown around A LOT now instead of “strong” or “fun” or “versatile” even among the best of the best (look at the round table discussion.) Something COULD be “broken” and be TOO good but the general consensus is “Is this a very strong tool? Then it’s broken.” before even considering “Is there ways to FIGHT this tool? Do these tools carry risk? Are there downsides to this tool? How can I view this objectively?” Look at how the round table said they took all of the broken stuff out of the arcade version except for Yun’s but that would imply Yun is broken. Yet AE yun was much stronger and the rest of the cast was much weaker and even in THAT version it’d be hard to call Yun “Broken” though I could certainly agree that he very well MIGHT have been (Be hard to argue he wasn’t at least a LITTLE broken.) This version of Yun seems “strong” and “annoying” and “possibly the best character in the game” but not broken.
Here is a list of things I can think of seeing strong and respectable tournament players bitch about over the years and whether I feel these are “defense” or “offense” oriented tools in terms of the issue bitched about:
Note: I’m not claiming to agree with any of these complaints, just iterating what those complaints were.
Honda EX Headbutt -> Defense tool (wanted to be able to punish it easier on block when used as a wakeup option.)
Cammy EX Dive Kick -> Offense tool (considered broken, hitbox too good, gave a ton of frame advantage on hit/block due to no height requirement.)
Cammy normals -> offense tool (did too much stun/damage)
Sakura FJ HP -> Offense tool (hitbox was too hard to defend against in neutral)
Akuma demon flip palm -> offense tool (was complained about how good it was before due to being hard to defend against him, nerfed it to no longer be an overhead. AE2012 complained it was still too hard due to no additional recovery on whiff over normal landing frames, no change occured.)
Akuma jump back fireball -> defense tool (was too hard to get in on an Akuma who runs away and then uses JB FB to cover himself, especially as he could convert that fireball into more damage if it hits.)
Fei Long Rekkas -> Offense tool (Too much corner carry, to much chip, too much frame advantage on block making it hard/impossible to punish. Nerfed in AE2012 and Ultra)
Seth Cross up HK -> Offense Tool (too much damage, gave too much frame advantage. Removed as an option in USF4)
Seth Stretchy jump HP -> Defense and offense tool (Too good at keeping opponents out and as an instant overhead since Seth didn’t have the slow fall speed of Dhalsim.)
Seth DP invincibility too high -> offense tool (In regards to the reason it was an issue, it wasn’t that it was invincible on defense being the problem, it was using it on offense because the longer invincibility even though it had a slower startup meant that it would beat reversal DPs if Seth used the DP offensively.)
Seth Tanden engine -> offense (Lets him keep you in frame traps and mixups for very long time as despite the long startup he could buffer it from normals and the early animation frames were not very obvious.)
Yun dive kick -> offense tool (Height restriction was extremely low in AE and allowed him to maintain pressure for a long time.)
Yun target combos -> offense tool (gave too much frame advantage and too much damage.)
Sagat damage values -> offense and defense (overall did a ton of damage in Vanilla. [IMO The Vanilla -> Super nerfs made sense as Sagat’s individual moves were far ahead of the rest of the cast in terms of damage and upping others to match Sagat might have been a bit much with how far ahead Sagat was, however I think they could have kept some of the normals that are STRICTLY pokes a bit higher like 130 dmg crHP)
Guile sonic boom meter gain -> defense[mostly] (Guile’s fireball being as fast as it was overall meant he built meter EXTREMELY quickly and safely in Super.)
Adon jaguar kicks -> offense (did too much damage/chip)
Zangief EX Banishing Flat -> Offense (knockdown on a relatively quick and fully invincible move leading to oki)
Zangief LP SPD -> Offense (reaches very far)
Sakura EX Tatsu -> Offense (frame advantage on block let her stay on offense even if the attack was blocked and it lead to a ton of damage on hit.)
Akuma crHK -> Offense [and to an extent defense] (Lead to all his offense and could be made extremely difficult to whiff punish due to buffer to U1 on recovery making it a risk to try and punish and also making it impossible to focus. All that on top of being extremely difficult or impossible to punish on block for some characters due to pushback.)
Stuff people complained about that didn’t get changed (that I can think of):
Adon far HK -> offense and defense (incredibly good poke due to high damage and 2hits and far reaching. [Nerf reverted])
Viper burn kicks -> offense and defense
Ibuki kunai mixups -> offense
Akuma teleport -> defense
Rufus dive kick -> offense
And that is just stuff I can think of off of the top of my head.
Let me count em up now:
21 "offense"
9 “defense”
Blanka ball and Blanka hop not on that list!
Eh, I don’t recall seeing it loudly complained about other than being “annoying / gimmicky / stupid” but not “broken / over powered / too good / brainless / needs a nerf” like everything else on that list.
AE Yun was broken in that game, but he would have got his ass kicked by Vanilla’s top 4 or 5.
Sagat would have chopped that little shit in half Mortal Kombat style with one uppercut. Ahh they were the day’s… #wakes up in cold sweat with Ultra playing in the background#
This is why people really need to differentiate kinds of defensiveness. The game has a ton of character designs that bypass or mitigate the space control aspect and get to the upclose can opening game where you’re dealing with bunkers. Games feel nicer when screen control is Stronk ™ and you’re shitting your pants if someone gets in on you. Now it’s just oh ex imoveatonthroughfireballs at you, time to start timing those crouch techs.
yeah i think it’s dumb for characters to bypass zoning so easily, then some character like ibuki can just focus backdash out of nearly everything and be safe.
Fixing Sagat mobility would do a lot to help him defensively.
Nope. People assume since Vanilla, Super, AE, AE2012 were all the final versions of SF4.
Been crying about walk speed since forever, they’d never give him that though. I don’t know why we couldn’t just get the Arcade port Sagat, I want to know what changed their minds because it must have been something, for them to actually produce a game then back peddle it drastically (because lets face it, there’s some serious differences, not just for Gat).
I’d love to think it wasn’t simply looking at BP on cards but my little Capcom angel is holding one finger up smiling at me. You just don’t know these day’s, people cried loud enough on CU forums and they pretty much got what they wanted - characters that can’t do anything. I love that Fei Long, Cammy and Akuma are still kicking ass, like they took the scrubs shit and still came out on top.
…til the patch.
“Fireball characters will do well in Ultra”.
- Nerf Sagat
- Nerf DeeJay.
- Give 0 shits.
I was also curious about how many characters have moves that are projectile invincible AND (safe and/or lead to a combo on hit)? Because it seems like the answer is “A lot” and it feels like the game has gotten more such moves in every version as basically every new character that’s been added has some way to (usually) easily circumvent fireballs AND existing character who didn’t had their moves tweaked to do so. I ask this because the Wiki is kind of a mess at the moment (I’ve also never played a fireball based character in this game so that’s my reason for not knowing this info =p ). This isn’t even counting the number of Supers and Ultras that basically function as fireball IQ tests.
Why cammy’s ex Spiral arrow is projectile invincible from frame 1 baffles me. As if she doesnt have one of the best walkspeeds, great normals, and a dive kick to say “fuck your projectiles”. And that move goes far as fuck, and it starts up in 7 frames (fast as fuck).
Meanwhile “slow as a turtle, no way to change my jump arc” cody’s EX ruffian is only invincible on frame 11.
wtf capcom :*(.
Im gonna play cody till the day i die but im learning a more interesting zoner [juri] and a more interesting rush-down char [yun]
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