USF4 | Tier List Thread (updated October 2015)

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
841

Yeah, Daigo is definitely scientific when he wants to be. Did you see that one interview where he broke down the Akuma matchup in order to beat Infiltration? That shit was nuts.

Like veserius said, he’s also really good at blocking setups. After Sako ran a train on him at Topanga, he practiced against the setups and blocked almost every single one them.

That said, I think they should’ve put Ryu in C+ with Sagat, because he may not have all of the tools to open you up like the characters they put in B tier, but he is definitely equal to or better than Sagat in Ultra.

842

The interview was odd because it felt he intentionally avoided mentioning the new focus dash proof spacing that played a huge role in the set. Just focused on the meter use pattern. (Which in itself was a great idea)

843

you know the same shoto tools that people mention when talking about how oni could never have been bad? guess who has better versions of all that shit. i’ll give you ryu being weaker because of match ups, but am i going to buy into the idea of ryu being somehow unplayable or not viable? hell no.

and yet you people who think the game sucks keep coming the fuck back. the sand must be very addictive as well.

theres an ST forum around here somewhere with 10ish ppl posting. youre welcome.

like kitl said, my point was that him calling ryu weak was more based on his feeling about ryu than him sitting down and weighting ryu’s matches vs the rest of the cast’s matches. daigo could tell us more about ryu than we could ever hope to learn, but it doesnt stop him from being human and allowing his feelings about something to get involved with his evaluation

look at the interview and you can see how passionate he is about the character. he speaks about him like a girlfriend that he dumped

so “ryu is weak” comes out as an overstatement and gives fuel to those looking to grapple onto a quote to support their own views.

this game blows, DWU and ryu sucks. oh look daigo said ryu is weak too. nevermind that it was an emotional statement made during a socially loose setting

**in no way does this imply that daigo is not the best or question his knowledge about anything fighting game or ryu related
**

844

I agree that Daigo saying that Ryu is weak was probably something that came after he tested him (hell, he was top 5 in Japan with Ryu before he went to E.Ryu).

I also think that Ryu being weak isn’t something that makes the game bad, it talks bad about Capcom since they proved that they can do a good job balancing some characters, but hell, Daigo got over it, I don’t see Ryu being bad as the game being bad as a whole. If Gief got nerfed in another balance patch (please god don’t) I’d either stay with him or drop his ass.

845

It is a reasonable reason not to play Ryu, but because he wrote a book is a silly reason; that’s on a whole new level of dick ride “Mah nigga daigo is like a Shakespearean muh fuckuh straight up educated he could write and read books” lol.

I’m just saying what I thought HNIC Mike meant, but that’s not the opinion I hold.

846

I think it’s crazy to think he didn’t do his due diligence with Ryu. Dude is Ryu incarnate.

Book writing is a silly reason though, yes.

847

I bet they could have came up with a hefty list of things they wanted if Capcom had been forthcoming and told everyone they were going nerf invincible DPs on block and add delayed wake up.

848

What are you talking about? He wrote a book on winning. About his experiences with fighting games and how he has continued to be so good. In this book he writes about how he creates his own strategies. He even talks about how he plays beyond just reading opponents. Writing a book on winning (using his own fighting game examples) is very relevant to whether or not he is a scientific player; especially when he goes into detail. You can laugh at the book, but it was a bestseller on amazon; and led to him giving presentations based on its contents. That is a pretty big deal for a guy that came out of an arcade.

It’s not dick riding to acknowledge someone elses accomplishments. Also, in a competitive environments accomplishments can define people; such as Daigo. It IS hating to pretend that writing a bestseller based on winning using fighting games as reference is not a big deal. It is also ridiculous to think that he isn’t scientific in the ways he approaches the game - as showcased in his book.

You play fighting games. You have posted on these forums roughly twice a day for two years. HNIC Mike posts roughly 3 times a day for the past 5 years. You both are obviously really into the game - “more than a game”. Rather than pretending it’s all feel and hating; why not learn from what guys like Daigo, JWong, and others are doing to always be at the top of their games. It’s not dickriding it’s respect.

849

I didn’t even say that.

The statement that ryu is weak in the context of this interview and tier list is hyperbole. The quote is emotionally charged

And yes, I think daigo looks at things less scientifically and judges based on feel. How else could he look at things considering he is the highest point of reference he can go to.

This does not mean that he doesn’t put time in, makes snap judgements, or he doesn’t know his character.

850

I think most Ryu players wanted:

  • A better fireball
  • Cr.mk xx fireball to be a true blockstring
  • Faster walk speed (I think Ryu is too slow now)

And that’s before DP FADC being nerfed was known.

851

Making f.hp actually hurt again would have been nice too

852

The problem with most fireball characters is that they can’t dish out enough damage to offset the threat once a character gets in. Even for example Guile vs Dudley, it doesn’t matter how long or how many hits he takes, he can say " that’s fine, but when I do get there , you die" its not if, its when.

I agree about focus attack and something I’ve been thinking about recently, what if they made focus attack punishable on block after a forward dash? This would also remove a lot of scrubby 50/50 scenarios. As it is, a good technique to close gaps is to focus the fireball, release then dash forward, this for a lot of the match is low risk high reward ( you crumple if you win, you pressure and gain space if you lose).

I think it would make fireball characters stronger without drastically changing much. That way you have to use your tools smarter than simply just walking these characters into the worst spots for free.

You very rarely see a zoning match at all now, its got to the point where people respect a keep out round because its rare.

853

IMO you are the one making emotionally charged statements because a) You don’t back them up with anything but anecdotal evidence. b) You’ve created a straw man with the whole idea of Ryu being weak.

Noone in that interview said that. I myself said Ryu is obviously weaker, and that the majority of the cast is boring and weak, and that was in reference to how Capcom approaches balance.

They talk about all this and many more things that players have lamented for years - nerfing strong things in favor of milder (read: weaker) alternatives, removal of tactics without compensation, lack of options for the aggressor during close-up combat, the stupidity of 3f abare crouch tech, Capcom’s lack of direction when it comes to balance, characters on the whole lack firepower, the implication that Yun is enjoyable because the game is slow and he speeds it up, that Capcom should start thinking about how to make the game more fun etc etc.

I’ll say it again - the majority of this game’s cast is boring and weak. Its not just Ryu. The evidence for this statement has been posted on these forums over many years, and now you can read the same from top players themselves. Look at what Bonchan himself said about Sagat, and they regard him a C+ AND viable. The implications are obvious - weak characters are still viable because the majority is weak.

I must admit though that I find your statement about Daigo not being a scientist highly amusing. He might not have Ono Editor at his disposal, but the dude practices in a dedicated man-cave with 2 monitors open at the same time and another one open with internet access. Maybe he just does that because it makes him feel happy…

854

I think the best part of the Daigo/Tokido/Bonchan/etc… discussion was regarding how Capcom buffs underused characters thinking it will make them more popular. As said: the characters aren’t underused because they’re weak; they’re underused because they aren’t fun to play. I think that really hits the nail on the head.

Example: el fuerte. I think in this version he might actually be pretty good, which could be scary. When was the last time anyone played a set against a fuerte player and thought it was fun? The character design just doesn’t fit well in this game. Instead of working on making him fun, they keep buffing him. And, what would happen if they accidentally overbuffed him. I mean what if Fuerte was S tier? What a nightmare, lol :).

Imo, this is why zoning characters keep getting worse. Because they are popular and Capcom keeps buffing the less popular characters (while nerfing the popular ones).

As far as tier list stuff goes: I see guile vs dud was mentioned as how there is no zoning. I agree that this match is a great example of Dudley not respecting anything guile has. How about Sagat vs Dudley? I mean is that a winnable match for Sagat? Once Sagat is in the corner, what is his strategy?

855

Gat dudley is just as bad, but its dumb stuff that makes it worse. High ts nerf coupled with dudleys dumb ultra are unnecessary editions in an already tough fight.

That’s pretty much how sagat handles now, turtle and push nothing, hope your opponent hangs themselves.

856

For fucks sake. when did Daigo say “Ryu is weak”? As far as I know that never happened. Here is the exact things Daigo said about Ryu in the round table discussion that everyone here was too fucking lazy to read:

Sounds like he basically feels that:

  1. DWU does hurt Ryu a lot more than many other characters who have more oki options.
  2. There is no reason really to play Ryu over Evil Ryu in most match ups.
  3. There are a lot of anti ryu strategies and moves in the game.

Y’know, basically the stuff we all already agree on.

857

Sounds like someone got wrecked by a man with a curly and full mustache

858

Ha , honestly, I’m decent in the dudley match, the thing is with Sagat ( and most Zoners) its not that, its the fact that you’ve got about a 50% chance that the character you’re about to face has multiple ways round zoning , and not skillfull ways, just some effortless spam at the cost of none or one meter, or an ultra.

The thing that annoys me is that its possible to have strong characters without that. Fei Long is one of few examples. I feel now the strategy of street fighter as a whole has become less what we ( most of us) loved the game for and more about bypassing footsies. Vanilla had it right, they should have kept the strong stuff in, and let the vortex compete with the zoning. Strong vs strong.

There’s just too many character designs that don’t interact well. I mean even look at rolento as the latest and greatest. Unfortunately for half the cast , they get one step forward and two steps back.

859

Just from my experience, everytime I play against a skilled ryu/gat/guile, ducking through projectiles is out of the question. They are good at baiting ducks and punishing witha poke with clever feints and good spacing/footsies. At intermediate levels Dudley has an advantage sure but the higher the skill level the more even they become. I used to bitch about bison and Vega all the time, but after developing a fleshed out footsies arsenal I feel like they’re even matchups to maybe slightly disadvantaged at worst as a Dudley player. I’m pretty sure thatthis mentality can apply to zoners that typically have a tough time against anti zoning. Fireballs in this game are very effective when used to disrupt a gameplan moreso that establish your own (imho) if that makes sense

There are some cheesy tactics that bypass footsies by a few characters (can’t think of anyone else besides viper and feurte) maybe but I don’t think that’s something Dudley does.

860

Dude watch Sanford vs Smug play this matchup. All you need to really see why its a bad match.