Well to be honest different match ups having different weights is not a bad way of looking into it. The more your character does well vs the top tiers is more important than the lows because you are usually more likely to fight them in tournaments. I think the question is, Are tier lists and tournament viability list the same thing ? This feels like a more of a tournament viability list than a tier one.
I think their list is most about how the players in B/C match up against those in the Top 10… Ryu does not do as well against those characters as a character like Akuma does. He does better than Dhalsim though.
In terms of Ryu’s ranking Daigo pretty much said Delayed Wake up nerfed him. Well so did FADC -5… These system changes hurt these characters a character like Ryu more than Cammy
basically the community complained and capcom made some midtier characters worse. Had Ryu received the same line of buffs Ken got then he would be ranked higher IMO…
If it was a tournament viability list then Cody would be D or C- (instead of C which is where he deserves to be) because he gets shit on by most of the higher tiers. Yun, Ibuki, Cammy, Juri, Akuma, Rufus, Ken, Viper, Evil Ryu these are all characters who go 6-4 or BETTER against Cody now. (Ibuki/Cammy/Yun/Rufus probably 7-3. Akuma 6.5-3.5 MAYBE 7-3 but debatable with Cody’s high damage and stun output making Akuma pay if Akuma DOES make a mistake but only IF Akuma fucks up.)
Dhalsim sure as hell wouldn’t be B tier on a tournament viability list unless it was a lock-in tournament or team tournament, far too easy to counterpick. Ryu also wouldn’t be that low on a tournament viability list.
Even though I was very worried before footsie buffs and ex red fireball speedup, there’s no way Akuma is just B tier in this version.
Take Sakura out maybe though and then look at the tier above. All of those characters have got great way’s of opening up characters into big damage or resets (you can read that sentence as “all of these characters have a bunch of bullshit they can apply”). I’d say their C tier is full of the grinders, in other words the work you put in does not = the reward you get out when facing one of the characters further up the chain.
Go up a level to B - they’ve got characters like Dudley/Abel/Seth/Rufus/Yang/Gief/Hawk/Ken in there and everyone knows Rose is probably the best zoner left (unless you count Juri as a zoner). All of those characters are dangerous, they are a threat and a risk or read by them could mean the end of a round.
Threat doesn’t belong in a sentence with Cody/Sagat/Ryu/Blanka/Gouken/Guile etc etc.
Dhalsim I’ll give you is a little high but then maybe they are using their own experiences since they play the best Sim.
I think people just view tier lists as fulfilling different functions. What they should be in essence (IMO of course) is a weighted matchup chart. I’m not a statistician, but I think you could whip something up where you take the flat total matchup value (add up all their matchups, be they 6pts for a 6-4 or 2pts for a 2-8) and then use that to establish a weighted value for that character. Apply that weighted value to the matchup points of the character (so if they’re something like a 60% character, you’d multiply the matchup number of a character against them, such as another character going 6-4, by .6. Thus the second character would get 3.6pts here). Add them up and you have a tier list that actually takes into account beating high tier characters.
It’s definitely not perfect; I can notice some issues right off the bat, but I think actually having a methodology is better than “E.Ryu is not competitive” “Oh snap, E.Ryu is the beast.”
Gouken is amazing at big damage and resets. His fireballs and the first hit of tatsus are always free juggle state and he can reset with anything.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXddJ8g6iNk
The only real issue Gouken has now is that he doesn’t have a 2hit fireball unless he fully charges for 60+ frames, and his overall game out of lights while much much better than AE2012 still sucks.
Oni still gets big damage just converting footsies but yeah he doesn’t have shenanigans to open you up outside of like kara throw and frame traps.
If Cody gets in your face and you make a big mistake he does great damage but he sucks at resets and even up close has little to make you respect his frame traps since he doesn’t have things like a hit confirmable low or a kara throw or the ability to alter jump arc, or an invincible move for traps, or a move that beats stand throw techs that works during frame traps (F+HK airborne too slow for it when combined with his backwards walk speed preventing him from shimmying and then starting the F+HK from outside of throw range.) but his damage is good.
Ryu is just solid but yeah he doesn’t have great way to open people up besides just playing solid. Same with Guile.
I’d rather play against Gouken than Dudley or Rufus. Gouken I feel you still have to make a mistake for him to get access to that damage, either that or you get focus crumpled (his focus is actually very good). Don’t get me wrong, I think he went from average to viable but he’s still a fairly “honest” character ( I hate that term but I’m not sure how to express that).
The other characters can force you into breaking or making a mistake (or simply just blocking wrong) and when they do you pay hard. I don’t think Gouken can do that. Nor any of the characters in C tier (again I’m not sure about Sakura now, people still say she is strong).
C tier you have outplay the man the entire round. B tier have a degree of ham that is lower risk higher reward.
In my opinion, others may think different. That’s my view of SF as a whole, it’s better (more viable) to play characters that can convert safer situations into big damage rather than characters that have to grind out with small health exchanges.
decapre can combo out of her overhead, does that count?
Gouken’s fireball is about as safe a situation as you can get and he can convert a full screen anti air fireball into U2 or HP Palm on reaction for 200+ damage :p.
Considering where Ibuki is on that list, I thought we might see this once again, but I doubt it:
Can’t stand the little ninja biotch but I wouldn’t mind seeing that again.
Okay… WHAT?! There is no way this was a serious roundtable and not, say, a raging coke party that featured a bit of SF4 discussion.
Dhalsim is in the same tier as Akuma?
lol get fucked
I think Japan is overrating DWU. It’s more annoying than it is effective. Cammy forums have already found setups to cover it by whiffing a st.lp (usually). I can imagine a lot of other characters finding ways to do the same.
I do agree with their statement on Yun. He’s not broken but he does well or even against the other high tiers and more or less beats everyone B or lower except maybe grapplers. He invalidates a lot of the cast the same way he did back in AE (Capcom never learns). Honestly Yun was pretty well balanced in AE 2012 it sucks that USF4 mechanics benefit him so much and he got buffs on top of that.
Daigo mentioned that he thought Boxer was a good counter to Yun and as someone who plays Boxer I disagree. I’m obviously not on their level and maybe they know something I don’t but I don’t this he counters Yun at all. Maybe he just meant soft counter and he thinks its even? I could understand that.
Also I wonder why they think Sakura is so low tier, she was top 10 in AE 2012 and is mostly unchanged. She still does big damage/stun, has good pressure. Although truth be told I haven’t seen a ton of Sakuras in Ultra yet. Did Uryo drop her?
the characters at the top are not overly impacted by DWU, a lot of mid tier or lower characters are though. It just gives them another thing to crappy at.
Uryo mostly plays Poison and apparently some Decapre.
Yeah but you have to mind the DWU in the first place or it’s not a good set up anymore.
DWU isn’t the absolute vortex killer but there now is a 50/50 layer on every HKD.
Boxer doesn’t counter Yun. It’s 5-5.
wtf why? that was clearly why they made dwu and ruined the game.
It’s here to stay, unfortunately. Momobuki pls. I also remember him saying she’s not tournament viable, she is definitely more viable now than in Super, so I’d like to see how he’d do… if he’s even been using her.
Sure - but I’ve still got to jump into that fireball. It’s not a set up nor a difficult scenario, it’s a wishful gamble that you can react to if your opponent obliges.