USF4 Hakan change list. UPDATE: Fix for CR LK

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
21

Have posted my say:

Hello here are some simple request’s I hope you can take on board:

Request 1: Have his standing Heavy punch (chop) hit as an overhead.

Reason: As people have said Hakan unoiled has no offense against crouching characters. If he is backed into a corner and unoiled the other player only has to wait for him to oil and then punish him. Also crouching jabs stuff his Oil Rocket even when he is oiled. It would also help his mix up game with his Oil dive as it misses crouching characters. It doesn’t have to be two hits.

Request 2: Have missed Oil Dives fly over characters more easily.

Reason: When Arcade Edition 2012 came out it was revealed that his his oil dives would be able to travel over crouching characters. However this only works at point blank range and not with the LK oil dive. This could be a legitimate way to avoid the earlier scenario of Hakan backed into a corner. As he has poor defensive options it would be one more way he could ‘slip’ out of the corner for a chance to oil up.

Thanks for your time.

22

I posted this on the capcom board but I feel I need to say it again here:

For everyone asking for st.HP as an overhead I would like you to consider something. Would you still be willing to have it as an overhead if that meant it was going to be totally useless as an anti air and weaken it as a footsies tool in general? Because that is what you are asking.
Fei long has a very fast overhead. It only does 70 damage but comes out in 18 frames. 18 is really fast for an overhead. Most are over 20 frames.

Hakan’s st.HP comes out in 8 frames and does 120 damage. And is two hits so it breaks focus. 8 frame start up and it’s already hard enough to anti air with. Are you saying you are willing to make this move 10 frames slower (at least, I am assuming it would be WAY slower than fei long’s overhead) and do probably a lot less damage?

I see a lot of complaints that Hakan has bad anti airs and you want to remove one of his best options for an anti air?

Please consider this before you ask for st.HP to be an overhead because they will not give him an 8 frame overhead.

Someone pointed out that Ryu’s overhead is 15 frames and hits twice. 15 frames is still far too slow to ever anti air with. It’s hard enough with it the way it is. Please don’t take away st.HP as one of Hakan’s best tools because you want an ovehead he doesn’t need.

23

This is a very valid point, but in spite of it’s speed, it’s not serving a good purpose as an anti air.

The reason to make it a fast anti air would be to either A. beat out certain predicted jump ins or B. reactively punish them right? But his st.HP still has none of the other qualities that would make this a truly viable thing, like a generous hitbox above him, a reduced hurtbox, etc. Even on response (which it is MUCH better at now, yes) it’s not cutting it as well as many other chars with anti air normals do. It used to be slower, as we all know, and f.LP was the go to anti air, weak as it was. Honestly, his f.LP is still generally serving as a better reactive anti air to me in most scenarios, but that’s me. But having it as an overhead would benefit his ground game, something rather dire for him, rather than poorly cushion his anti air game. I think the sacrifice could be worth it.

Of course…now this is REALLY silly, what if his CROUCHING HP was the overhead, now? Since it is him swinging his head down, after all XD

24

Are Capcom even going to listen to the requests on Capcom unity? I mean why is an American website taking advice for changes for a Japanese game in the first place?

What about all the players in Asia? Why don’t they get a say on the changes they want made?

Something doesn’t add up here people.

25

Buffs are always nice… but those buff’s are certainly not important. If you want those buff’s you may as well go pick a shoto, Hakan is not a shoto. If you are a serious Hakan player you should read Kimo’s suggestions. I have used Hakan since day 1 and I think his suggestions are the most “Hakanish” changes we could have.

Also, s.hp is fine, if made an overhead it would be nice… but I wouldn’t like to se any nerf to how it currently works.

I would love to see this changes, (I have been thinking about this since quite some time and I see other people recommending the same changes… so seems this are really needed)

[list]
[] U2 changed to d,d+KKK. I came up with this on my own and I have read 2 Hakan players recommend the same change. Why this change? If you pick up Ryu’s U2 as anti-air ultra and try to react to jump in’s you do the MOTION down, forward, down, forward + KKK. Notice I wrote MOTION, not input commands. Now, with current Hakan’s U2, if you want to react to a jump you do the motion down, neutral, down, neutral, down + KKK. So the input commands are less, but the motion to execute the command is more. d,d+KKK is less input and less motion, but you have to take into account that if the Hakan player wiffes the ultra he will certainly get punished and have no more protection for vortex mixups, also… U2 is not the most damaging ultra… So, I think this change is a must.
[] Faster guard position by making the recovery faster. When Hakan was initially introduced his guard position was “promoted” as a good air attack deterrant… Currently you could use it like this, but you will find his recovery sucks.
[] Safer normals… the most obvious one, c.mk. I would be surprised if c.mk doesn’t get a substantial buff. Did you know you can get ultra’d by Sakura if you try to cancel c.mk with slide.hp… its not a block string :expressionless:
[] Drykan slide.ex should have the same range as Oilkan
[] Drykan Oil Dive.ex should have throw invinsibility also
[] Make super cancellable with guard position. I bet everyone here has accidentally done super when trying to do oil shower :-/
[*] Faster f.hp, f.mk and c.hp
[/list]

26

I think you also have some good suggestions, the U2 I’ve seen around and would be nice, and it would be AWESOME if guard position was more viable as a, I dunno, GUARDING move. But I don’t see how any of my suggestions constitute a shoto O.o nor how making oilkan more like drykan is anything OTHER than anti-Hakan. I’ve also played him Day 1 of his release and never looked back, I don’t think he needs his specials heavily influenced, let that be his unique and awesome side. But he definitely needs some normal things that let him keep up when unoiled. I’m on the same page with some safer normals, that he has no proper poking game is one of his biggest drawbacks (mostly 1 or 2 frame links that can be bossed out by any shoto mashing dp on a slightly mistimed hit? stay free) and that oildive and super stuff, but I think we’re more likely to get the best changes if we go minimalist on the suggestions, and try to find the smallest changes that would really help him, yakno?

27

A question from me, there some people, who cry that Hakan will get buffs and then will be broken(I guess the salty/oily runback will end bad for some characters), what kind of answers should be given to these person? They are all forgetting, how bad the unoiled version is.

http://www.capcom-unity.com/street_fighter/go/thread/view/7411/29846177/hakan-balance-suggestions?pg=16

[details=Spoiler]I agree that Hakan is at the time, not a powerful character compared to the majority of the cast, but it has untapped potential, and because of this, we’ll likely to see buffs and many improvements on him by the time the new version launches.

Because of the stated above, there’s something I think it should be attended with priority in my opinion, and maybe I’ll get a lot of hate for saying this, but he needs to be nerfed in a peculiar feature: BACKDASH NORMAL CANCEL

Forward dash normal canceling is a good feature, gives extra purpose to stay oiled, and messes with opponent main gameplan, but in order to keep this under control, lp and lk links must stay the same, if they make it simplier to link, it will become derp and easy to use, And Hakan should not be easy to use, needs training and experience.

However, Backdash normal canceling is unfair mostly because the airborne status, and invulnerability while backdashing. In fact, it doesn’t make sense that Hakan performs a GROUND ATTACK while in airborne status, am I wrong?. Makes his wakeup game retarted good, maybe a lot of people have overlooked this, and some others don’t even know what am I talking about, but real Hakan users probably know about this. Lets put some scenario examples:

Hakan rising from a soft/Hardknockdown in the corner:

  • The opponent throws a meaty normal: Hakan backdashes until active frames from meaty dissappear, and continue with cr. MK + slide, Standing HP, or does lp/lk, puts the opponent on a guessing state were if Hakan will try a SPD, or Oil Dive.

-The opponent neutral jumps to avoid SPD: BDNC into Standing HP

  • The opponent tries to normal throw on Hakan wake up: BDNC into anything possible when throw active frames go away.

In offense situations, where Hakan Lands a Hard knockdown with any of his moves, he can:

-BDNC when wakeup opponents attempt a crouch tech.
-BDNC when they attempt a DP, Hakan travels back fast enough to get safe, his normal will likely whiff, but leaves him in a very favorable situation

  • When an opponent performs a wakeup ultra, while Hakan backdashes, it gives the player enough time to do Guard Position, the Ultra will whiff above him (Except for Cody’s U2 and Seth’s Tandem Engine). It evens beats Zangief’s U1.

Bottomline, as I stated before, Hakan will get buffs, and if this goes overlooked, Hakan will get dramatically dangerous with this tool, please, put it into consideration.

Thanks for reading[/details]
“How to destroy a character”

It is up to Capcom, what kind of changes they will give to him, I just hope reasonable things, like a better unoiled game.

28

Yeah scratch the overhead. Just give him a better anti-air.

Also Oil dives should slip over crouched characters much easier.

Super should be crouch cancelable too.

29

Wow, its been a long time since I posted here due to conscription and its nice to see changes being made again. I’m kinda guessing from previous changes made for Hakan that Capcom really wants to make him a difficult character to use with two extreme ends (oiled and unoiled). So most changes would probably be frame data and some new features for oil, once again widening the gap between those two. I’m happy with his oily bonuses with only 1 feature I want with the rest being mostly frame and box changes.

  1. ST. LP: +1 extra hit and blockstun, making it a +6 on hit and +5 on block.d or no
    Linking his st.lp isn’t easy, especially if you are trying to make it a blockstring. Giving him that extra hit and block stun will not only make it easier and attract more players to play Hakan, it will also allow players on the higher end to use more combos assuming some other normals get changes as follows.
  2. CR.MK: -1 startup, making it a 6 frame startup instead of 7. -1 hitstun and -2 blockstun making it -2 on hit and -4 on block.
    Giving Hakan a 6 frame startup on cr.mk will not only give him that little edge on footsies but also set up a new, albeit hard to pull of combo from st.lp if the 1st change I mentioned was made. A good number of characters like Ryu have only a 5 frame startup on their cr.mk and Hakan could use new combos which aren’t even going to be easy to pull off anyway. Also being -6 on block is asking for big punishment, making it -4 will give Hakan a chance for him to defend himself on block.
  3. ST.HP: Increase the hitbox to or slightly above his fingertips during the initial 3 active frames. Yeah, I know Hakan has at least 4 anti-air normals and the awesome bdnc when oiled, but they are situational. Quite honestly I’m actually pretty ok with his anti-air as it is but it could be a little better. With the extended hitbox, we could use it earlier and trade less. Another way is to lower his hurtbox to around his elbow instead the bottom of his wrist.
  4. Diagonal J.MP: Raise the hitbox and lower the hurtbox around his arm. Ok when Hakan is jumping forward or backwards, it usually comes with these 3 normals, mp, hp or hk. Hakan has a low jump arc and a few characters like Seth could actually jump over his jumping normals when timed right. It’s kinda hilarious, sad and pathetic. I’m just asking for a trade against these people instead being stomped on.
  5. Removing the hurtbox from the bottom of his pants when jumping: As I mentioned before he has a low jump. So low that he still can hit by several moves when you timed his jump it a little late but sufficient for other characters. Example is against Seth spin kicks. It’s awkward to see him teleporting from the air to the ground when Seth touched Hakan’s ankles.
  6. Slide cancel on hit into Ultra 2: He has only one move to combo into ultra 2 which is the above one. Why not have another?

And something which I really want but really doubt would be implemented.
Extra range on drykan’s oil rocket. A very popular if not the most popular request for Hakan. Whenever we asked for this, Capcom won’t give. I’m pretty sure Capcom won’t buff drykan’s oil rocket at all. They really want him dry as a character so hard to use that we have to oil up, I have no doubts about it. If they ever were to buff it, I just want a range of 1.1, which just beats regular throw. Doesn’t need to be like Zangief’s hp spd.

30

I think he’s alright. Just don’t minus anything. Adding cancelable super is nice but not necessary, but even that I won’t use a lot.

Hakan’s combos are very tight in timing a little bit loose on this and I think even more people will pick him up. But I can’t complain since they’s added extra block stun for lp already.

I think he doesn’t need overhead when we have jab pressures. Sooner or later they’d start back dashing or jumping up can’t handle the terror of grab. Then that’s where f.lp and air grab comes in.

That’s it from me

31

So I’m resurrecting this thread simply beacuse Ultra SFIV is now 100% confirmed! Honestly I want some not too hard to ask for buffs. I want to start by saying even though Drykan is one of the worst characters int he game, he should probably stay that way simply because if he is to be godly when oiled, it should be a challenge staying oiled.

So here we go:

1.) Fix his inputs. I think Combofiend mentioned several times they are fixing inputs for a lot. Hakan needs it. Too often when I go from blocking to try to oil up or slide, I get oil rocket/dive due to shortcuts. That needs to be fixed. Hell i’ve gotten super from holding back then doing oil up.

2.) Ultra 2 changed slightly. Either change the input (because d, d KKK is too wonky a command to work under pressure) or make it more viable. Right now I feel its the easiest ultra to bait out esp with so many characters having air EX moves. Simple change, if you even TOUCH Hakan’s body it activates he ultra. You can walk up to Hakan while he’s on the floor, but if you stick out a limb it should activate. I think the input change is more logical but whatever. Would be cool to see folks actually FEAR that ultra.

Everything else I’m not sure about since I don’t have frame data on hand. I feel like f+MP when oiled should be safe on block. His other normals are very much punishable by a lot of the top tier characters, give him one oiled normal that isn’t easy to punish. Or maybe make it where at certain ranges it can’t be punished. So if we time it and space it right we’re safe but still in there for pressure.

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Spoiler

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/the-x-button/2013-08-21

Any thoughts?

33

Hakan is a character that should rely less on gimmicks that won’t work against experienced players and more on a balanced grappler playstyle that can play to the players skill just like Abel, Gief and Hawk. As such …

  • St. Fierce is a viable anti-air regradless of oil.
  • SPD range oil is now almost Gief / T. Hawk level and un-oiled is his old oil range. (He can’t slide around so at least he can grab what’s right in front of him.)
  • Slide does more chip on block.
  • Lower the hurt box on slide. Being jump kicked a full character’s height when he’s laying on the ground is absurd.
  • Slide on both oiled and not have at least one more frame of hit stun on block each.
  • Unoiled EX slide acts as oiled.
  • light moves are somewhat linkable un-oiled. (At least so you can’t get DP’ed during their recovery frames.)
  • Oil dive has some anti-air abilities as well as an extended hit box in front and above while oiled. Regular is old greased up oil dive. (Hakan can’t grab jump away opponents with an air grab? Ridiculous.)
    • The goal is, to get the player in normal link blockstun and keep them guessing if you will oil dive their jumping and backdashing or spd them if they try to crouch. +
  • Forward+MP has less recovery frames while oiled. Un-oiled is old oiled version.
  • Air grab has a bigger hit box while oiled. Regular is old oiled version.
  • Inputs are less finicky or changed all-together. (whatever makes SPD and slide less interchangeable in the heat of the moment.)
  • Slide can be focus cancelled after input of follow-up.
  • Slide follow-up is chosen after hit on opponent. Not input / follow up before you know if the move will even hit. (This is why no Hakan’s do oil after slide. It’s a little too hard to input.)
  • Ultra 1 and II are always the oiled version regardless of oiled or not.
  • Ultra I is slightly farther.
  • Ultra II has the input of hado, hado, KKK. (actually with the rumor of both ultras being available, most characters should have this as their U2.)
  • Super has an increased forward range on hit box.
  • Super is cancelable by coward dive.
  • Oil dive goes over close crouching opponents. (when they are in light jab range at least.)
  • Oil dive EX is throw, attack and fireball invincible.
  • Coward dive can last about 2 more seconds.
  • Coward dive special cancelable.
  • Coward dive hit box lowered.
  • Coward dive getup / laydown sped up to about Blanka level.

And finally,

OIL DIVE UNBLOCKABLE IS REMOVED. Making Hakan a fair character means he doesn’t need a weird glitch like this. If all unblockables are being removed then so should the Oil Dive meaty trick. People think Hakan is some god-like character because of weird priorities like this when really this tactic is hiding a very lack-luster character from some much-needed adjustments. Hakan is a character that I honestly hate somedays but still play him after three years-and-half-years. I remember reading about Hakan from Lupenko and being psyched as hell and despite his horrible-ness, I STILL love the character.

But the more we and Cap encourage gimmicks for him rather than fair buffs and balanced priority and risk than we’re going to be left with a joke character. In a game where even Dan is viable, I don’t like to see my favorite character reduced to gimmicks and rumors of “best character in the game when oiled” when all you have to do is play him to know that is no where near true - no reliable anti-air up close, lowest health of any grappler, easy to predict and defend against flow chart, low priority on most moves, gimmick that is easily beaten by rush-down and moves that take a looooonnnng time to hit that are constantly swept or comboed. To play Hakan, is to have your best intentions and reads fail because of the hate people have when it comes to making Hakan viable.

If we could get Hakan to be at least as feared as Honda or Abel without having people feel cheated by unblockable gimmicks that don’t compliment either player or the game itself, then we have done our jobs as forum users and all the credit in the world to Cap and Combo.

That’s what I want. A fair, balanced character in a fair, balanced game without un-defendable options for either player.

34

I have…

What?

Oil Dive is a throw…

It’s always completely avoidable…

Do you…?

I don’t even…

35

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bk2WEl0CQAAuQhm.jpg:large

Latest changes for Hakan. So apparently there is nothing new.
Hakan

Standing HP hitbox expanded upward
Crouching LK recovery reduced from 9F to 8F
Crouching MP now Special-, Super Combo- and EX Focus-cancellable
Diagonal Jump MK hitbox expanded, easier to cross-up
Hakan Tackle (6+MP) changed from -5 to -4 on block, from -2 to ±0 on hit
Air Throw damage increased from 140 to 150
L, M and H Oil Rocket (No Oil) throw range increased from 0.97 to 1.05
EX Oil Rocket (No Oil) throw range increased from 0.97 to 1.20

Same changes from the Taipei build.

A bit lackluster imo, but still some nice buffs. Feel bad for Giefs btw.

Oh btw, does anybody know, if we can make use of the EX Red Focus attack?

36

Credit to KarbyP for the translation.

37

command grab has a 2F start-up???

38

Pretty certain he’s wrong on that one.

39

Shiro is olskool, prior to SFIV frame data was set differently. Startup was just the frames before the attack could damage/grab an opponent. The frame data for SFIV series includes the first attack frame. For example Gief’s SPD grabs on the 2nd frame, it has 1 frame start up by old standards. Hakan grabs on the 3rd frame a la 2 frame start up by Shiro’s understanding even if it says 3 in the frame data.

It all depends when you started using frame data or whether you have adopted the new system (which makes more sense).

40

Updated first post.