On another topic, I wonder what the game would be like if damage in combos had a cap depending on character, like characters meant to be heavy hitters can do up to 60% of the lifebar before any further damage is reduced to 0.1%, and lighters characters with great mobility and pressure or zoning get capped out at around 35% of the lifebar in a full combo? I don’t know, just brainstorming.
How does the community feel about TODs anyway? What would your solution to them be? Or would you want them to stay? Should a TOD at least use up 3-5 meters and just eliminate any that use less than that?
And if you are fine with TODs as they are, should every character in the roster be packing a way to do TODs? I get this feeling that some people don’t mind Zero being able to TOD with the slip and slide, so why don’t we just give everybody TODs? Perhaps only certain characters should have TODs and others should support their ability to get the TODs?
morrigan: safe when throwing fireballs, safe when doing shell kick, safe on all ground strings even if canceled into an unsafe special because it can be fly canceled and stringed into another special or unfly, safe when on the ground with 1 meter, has decent TACs outside of infinites, has safe dhc out, has safe dhc in, has anti air options, has invincible hyper on ground, can combo after air hyper, has great air mobility, has a meter build assist, has a combo-able CC assist that can be used as an anti-air in neutral, and a fireball assist.
I don’t see lower tiers like iron fist or hsien-ko being given enough tools to deal with what morrigan can do, nor offer to a team as much as morrigan does. I simply believe that as a team based game where you can cover weaknesses with assists that no character should be perfect without them and stupid with them.
I don’t see a “need” to giving chris an anti-air gunshot because that is where team synergy comes in. Characters are supposed to have weaknesses in all games, and in marvel you get the option to cover those weaknesses with assists. But morrigan doesn’t have weaknesses to be covered. And to say she doesn’t have options against characters who fly at the top of the screen is BS, it’s just people are using assists to bring them down so that she can continue soul spam and have them ready.
Morrigans rushdown is even very good, not wolverine good, but very good. Their shouldn’t be characters who are stupid safe like morrigan and vergil. I certainly don’t gripe about magneto or wolverine, and i have 10X more trouble with wolverine than i do anybody else in the cast. Wolverine has his weaknesses, and magneto isn’t built around dumb shit.
If you want to argue the problems with this point of view, note that i will most likely ignore the arguements. If you think their’s some solution that doesn’t involve nerfing dumb shit, then put your own patch list down because i would love to see iron fist be made into a vergil tier badass while kept true to his character.
If your thoughts are ToD’s should exist in the game, then you don’t know shit about fighting games at all. It’s not a marvel thing, it’s just what happens when a good idea isn’t thoroughly tested before release. Incoming mixups are part of the game, and ToD’s are the reason why incoming mixups are too strong. Characters like jill should be usable in second or third position, not smart because she has no escape options, but because she has no escape options doesn’t mean she should die on incoming.
Top tiers, ToD’s, OP assists, etc are holding back creativity. i wanna see evo top 8 next year involve a good variety of characters all with different positioning, assists, and gameplans. I would love to see morrigan in top 8 as an anchor character instead of point, or jill on point in what looks like a wolvie team (she’s basically wolverine with ass damage).
Since I really enjoy doing these sort of things, here are a couple more changes I would hope for. Once more, this is more in the spirit of a new game, so take it with a grain of salt.
Magneto
[details=Spoiler]Normals:
Standing Medium startup reduced to 7 frames
(Maybe?) Ground Chain changed to 2-Hit Limited
New Move: b.H - EM Pulse from COTA
Specials:
Reduced start-up on all versions of Hyper Gravitation
Range increase to L and M versions of Hyper Gravitation
L Forcefield counterattack releases pulse (cause untechable knockdown)
H Forcefield activates a forcefield that nullifies low and medium projectiles and lasts for 300 frames or until 250,000 damage is taken.
Hypers:
Invincibility on Magnetic Shockwave extended to frames 1-16
X-factor:
145% damage, 130% speed (static)
Damage received is reduced by 50%
Forcefield nullifies damage taken during active frames[/details]
Dante
[details=Spoiler]Normals:
Increase lift on Rainstorm
Ebony and Ivory extensions retain 5% minimum scaling
Readjust hitboxes for normals
Specials:
Minimum damage scaling for specials increased to 10%
Invincibility on The Hammer increased to frames 8-20
Multi-Lock projectiles no longer disappear if Dante is hit
1 hit of super armor added to Jet Stream (frames 8-24)
Cancel window for Fireworks increased to frames 20-22 for Reverb Shock, frames 57-59 for Revolver, and frames 42-44 for Jet Stream
Cancel window for Crazy Dance increased to frames 22-24 for Reverb Shock, frames 57-59 for Revolver, and frames 44-46 for Jet Stream
Sky Dance no longers affects ground bounce rule (see general changes)
Drive damage increased to 80,000
150% damage, 130% speed (static)
Increase minimum hitstun scaling
Dante can cancel his specials into each other (up to 3 times)[/details]
Dormammu
[details=Spoiler]Normals:
Reduce the start up of s.H to 10 frames, and increase active frames to 8
Reduce the start up of c.H to 11 frames, and increase active frames to 5
Projectile durability of f.H increased to 3 points
Specials:
Liberation gains armor or invincibility depending on charges
(Empty: armor frames 8-15
Destruction 1: armor frames 8-17
Destruction 2: armor frames 8-19
Destruction 3: armor frames 8-21
Creation 1: invincibility frames 6-12
Creation 2: invincibility frames 6-13
Creation 3: invincibility frames 6-14
Destruction Mix: same as Destruction 2
Creation Mix: same as Creation 2)
Creation spells retooled
(Creation 1: Changed to a rising pillar(similar to Magneto’s Forcefield counterattack)
Creation 2: Changed to 3 rising pillars(with same concept to Creation 1)
Creation 3: Single large falling pillar, OTGs, Ground Bounces(like a single Satellite Laser)
Hypers
New Move: dd.ATK+ATk - Power of the Faltine - gives boosts or hinders opponent depending on charges, lasts for 420 frames
(Destruction 1: 10% attack increase
Destruction 2: Can cancel specials into Dark Spells
Destruction 3: Can retain Dark Spells once after Liberation
Creation 1: Opponent can not jump or activate flight, affects only opponent’s team
Creation 2: Slows down opponent 33%, affects only opponent’s team
Creation 3: Opponents can not tag out, DHC, or CC, affects only opponent’s team
Destruction Mix: Properties of Destruction 2 and Creation 1
Creation Mix: Properties of Destruction 1 and Creation 2)
X-factor:
155% damage, 120% speed (static)
Increase minimum hitstun scaling
Fires various projectiles depending on button pressed[/details]
And I would think that we should try to figure out a way to make a big deal about this to grab their attention before anything else. We could come up with the greatest changes in the world, but it’ll be all for naught if Capcom never gets wind from the people who most want this patch to go down, so… does anyone have any good ideas regarding this matter?
What about one of those petition/signature sites or something. I don’t know which one is the best, but one where you don’t have to sign up to sign it, and where you can edit the comment with a changelog or at least general message of support.
X-Factor:
Remove the increased damage entirely. Higher minimum scaling and increased speed should be enough of a boost in addition to the ability to cancel supers/blockstun not to mention healing. Level 3 x-factor should have the duration lowered as well. A different option would be to remove the current buffs and instead have it give a cancel and 1 hit of armor for each level.
TACs:
Carry over hitstun scaling entirely from the combo that lead to the tac. At the very least make sure that it doesn’t freeze hitstun scaling (remove infinites).
Online
GGPO, 'nuff said.
Combos
There are too many moves that have knockdown or minimum hitstun properties that allow for extensions way into a combo. Consider a numbered limit to soft/hard knockdowns to match the ground bounce and wall bounce limits.
Unblockables
High/low unblockables are silly and don’t reward good defense. Make it so that you have to block the right way to escape a difficult situation, but actually have it be possible.
Hsien-Ko
-Pendulum cancels
-Faster movement
Skrull
-Bring back the love
-Remove tk tenderizer infinite
Firebrand
-Make his unblockable impossible to combo from without using a super or specific assist setup
Strider
-General damage boost either by scaling or base values
Arthur
-Remove knockdown when gold armor ends, if he really needs something to happen when the timer runs out (that design decision baffles me) make it cause a super flash that lets you renew the buff.
Frank West
-lvl 4-5 j.m should do less or no chip damage, it’s already a godlike normal
Vergil
-Reduce the ridiculous hitspheres at least a little, c’mon
-take out the ability to cancel helmbreaker with S
-reduce projectile durability of spiral swords
Iron Fist
-make S hit airborne opponents
Zero
-Remove the knockdown from lightning
Doom
-Make j.S cause hard knockdown as opposed to the groundbounce/hardknockdown that lasts forever
Morrigan
-slow down her flight activation
-lower the hitstun/blockstun of soul fist
-make soulfists disappear if she is hit
-remove the shadowblade j.S infinite
Storm
-Increase her damage, or give her ways to build meter in neutral like marvel 2
Modok
-remove his f+H infinite
Spencer
-Remove his zip-line infinite
-make his grapple damage scale correctly
Viper
-Make it impossible to combo from her unblockable except with super or a specific assist setup
-consider nerfing fadc somehow
From what I can tell, this is the site people have been using to get things done as of late. When the petition is made, it shouldn’t be requesting specific balance changes or anything like that, because that’ll just be in a mess in the end, we should just say, “Capcom, we want a patch and support you!” or something along those lines. Additionally I don’t think that I nor anyone else on this thread should be the one to do this, though… We should probably find someone who has a lot of clout in the community and a nationally metric ton of contacts to help us get the momentum started on this.
What you should be asking is for more fundemental changes in the game.
Like fixing assists, no reason you should be allowed to have your assist to continue attacking after you have been hit
Or giving an assist some real vertical properties making it a true AA.
Just having those two would do a lot without needing to change characters. The point is to be as minimally evasive as possible. Making a lot of small changes to a lot of characters is really stupid in a game like Marvel.
If you are going to nerf Zero, nerf his damage on LL, not his buster cancel. You could also take out the ability of the lightning to cross up in the corner (at least the L version). I would say drop minimum scaling on his specials to something like 10%, so you can still LL, but it will take something like 3 meters to kill anyone. His only real problem is he does WAY too much damage for what he is.
His buster cancel is the only thing that makes him somewhat fun to play. I have played him since the beginning of Vanilla, and he was a very stale character back in those days.
Iron Man: Fuck it, give him the length of airdash from this game with the startup of the air dash from the other game. Yes, he will be fast, but he is iron man and given how precise you have to be with most of what you do with him, he would rise to high tier at best.
Dante: PERFECT on point. He should be a case study for the strength levels of characters in this game. Nerf his js assist, either does it’s hits faster to not lockdown/convert as easy, or give it more startup/recovery. He is such an amazing character, it’s sad to see so many fraudulent Dante’s running around out there for js.
Honestly, Max wouldn’t be bad. He has a lot of pull with Capcom and presence for the casual community. Capcom is not going to care about the best player necessarily, they’re going to listen to a guy like Max who is kind of like the leader of the casuals. Nothing wrong with that, he helps bring people into the game. With the leverage from his Youtube subscribers, it’d be an easy way to get a lot more signatures. It’s a given that all the hardcore players are going to sign it already, but if Max could get a few thousand more casual players who would otherwise not even know about potential changes (because they don’t check Eventhubs or SRK), that’d be a much more powerful message to Capcom who quite honestly need to see the financial incentive behind an update/DLC. He was also the one that worked for Capcom before Ultimate to hype the new characters with his videos, which could be done again.
I don’t really care who is and isn’t a scrub right now - you are just a douche who is nowhere near as smart as you think you are
the big three in this game need nerfed because you can be a drooling retard and play them at 85% efficiency. they are too safe. risk vs. reward, one of the most important things with FGs, has no meaning with morrigan, zero, and vergil. all three of them foster extremely bad habits in most of the players who pick them up because they are so brainless.
Morrigan probably isn’t tearing up tournaments because anybody who actually plays FGs sees nothing appealing about her because she is the ultimate flowchart character. she is insanely good but is so fucking lame to play people just won’t pick her up. nerf her and people will celebrate - then a couple weeks later, nobody will care.
I love your example by the way. They fixed up Phoenix quite nice then added a brand new character that turned out to be not as good as she used to be… so what? what are you trying to say?
Hoo Boy. Let’s See what I can do here…
General System changes: Knock a Frame or two off Flight startup for most of the flying cast.
TACs: Now Have two options for Counters: The preexisting Method, And a automatic 1 Meter counter. Why would you ever do the guessing game again? If you guess correctly, you can now punish them. Meter Burn knocks them away as it does already.
Vergil: Fix the RT glitch, Swords cost 2 meters now, but Blistering swords and Storm are free. Helm Breaker is -1 on block.
Zero: Pull KD from L raikousen
Iron Man: More Range on his st S, Vanilla dash/Double Jump
Doom (This hurts me to type): Assist version of missiles either disappear on hit/ or reduce tracking
She Hulk/Tron: give em back what made them good in Vanilla.
Arthur: A dash, Spending half a meter and inputing gold armor command while in Gold resets timer (Or maybe Stacks like AE Hakan oil?) remove KD when the armor breaks
Sentinel: Fix people dropping out of Hard drive, 1 mill health, Armor on j. H (Maybe not that one)
I hate Zero just as much as the next guy, but you can’t take away his soft knockdown from lightning. If you flipped out of it every time he’d lose the majority of his buster hit-confirms. I know the soft KD is what leads to lightning loops, but i think LL’s should be looked at as a separate issue.
How about this: he can no longer charge up a level 3 buster during Sougenmu animation. Basically, when he activates Sougenmu, the little cut scene where it zooms up on his human face doesn’t count towards buster charge time.
So he’ll still be able to do a Lightning Loop if he does something like… Sentsuizan OTG + Jam Session (or whatever “holding” assist) for the pickup (to save his buster charge), activate Sougenmu, pop that buster and do a Lightning Loop.
There are 2 key factors in this:
He has to use an assist to start the LL, which means he’ll miss out on a chunk of damage pre-LL. For example, if he has Jam Session, he’ll need to save it to land his opening buster after Sougenmu for the LL. So he’ll lose that little extension that normally gives him 2 extra lightnings before LL.
He’ll no longer be able to loop LL’s on his own, so in most cases he’ll only be getting 1, which will leave some of the higher health characters alive.
I say that changes should the thought out about the characters that you play.
Having said that, I do not play Vergil (I hate that bastard)
But…
Here’s a thought(s) on how to change patch Vergil:
Change the frame advantage of Helm Breaker from 0 on block (Normal) to -5 on block, while changing Devil Trigger version of Helm Breaker to 0 on block (down from +3 I believe)
Adjust the range of Helm Breaker such that it no longer hits behind or above Vergil.
Change the priority of Spatial Swords Hyper from High Durability to Medium Durability (not the followups), such that the chip strings, the combos, and the utility in the neutral remains largely the same, but preventing the abuse and complete shut down of most characters options to fight back. This can also aid in some characters to react to swords in an easier manner, such as Hawkeye.
Eliminate the ability to cancel a blocked Helm Breaker into j.S unless in Devil Trigger.
Eliminate the ability to cancel a whiffed Rapid Slash into any super, unless in Devil Trigger.
Reduce the damage of Dark Angel from 610,000 to 550,000. Leaves the opponent in a Hard Knockdown state afterwards.
cr.:h: now has increased hitstun.
cr.:h: is no longer a soft-knockdown.
Decreased the range of st. :h:, st. :s: and decrease it’s active frames
Vergil’s normals no longer nullify projectiles, unless in Devil Trigger
Devil Trigger attack and speed boost are canceled during X-Factor
what kind of character do you think Zero is supposed to be?
for a guy who confirms literally everything I picture him as a very low damage character like Strider, where there is no practical way for Zero to kill somebody in one touch without burning his lvl3 and even then, it is only enough to take out 950k or less characters. he should have to touch pixies like himself twice and heavies three times to get his kills unless you set him up in front of Dr. Strange. he still dominates the screen so thoroughly he’d be high tier. not tops anymore, but high tier
I would nerf his damage scaling to shit (3% on normals, 5% on specials) and also nerf sougenmu - loses soft knockdown state on buster & lightning while in his install super so he has to use it chiefly to bolster his zoning game. he should only do 550k for a bar into rekkoha
you are nerfing the fuck out of vergil but somehow missed his cheapest tools
all standing normal hitboxes reduced in size, especially H and S
S-H-S is now only a three hit chain, no more SHSHSHSHSHSHS
I think that normal Vergil should be nerfed, but keep Devil Trigger Vergil largely the same to encourage use of Devil Trigger rather than Spatial Swords.
I also did mention the range reduction of :h: and :s: while reducing its active frames, meaning more commitment and less derp.
Also, keep rapid slash as is, but is no longer super cancelable on whiff, except on devil trigger.
