I saw Wesker on a stream and he did really good
Okay, I donāt quite understand what youāre trying to get at with your post. Can you name me a tourney where Wesker hasnāt been in the top 8?
I donāt mean to nit pick, but I disagree with this to some extent. Donāt you think Chun would go up in the SF4 tiers if her cr.HP xx Legs loop could be reliably done by the average player? I remember Deskās 50$ combo challenge and nobody could do the extended version. Not even once. And that was OUTSIDE of a real match!
So yes, execution matters in some cases. Higher execution requirements under tournament stress are a legitimate factor.
Disclaimer: please donāt apply this to the Viper ātheoryā wars. First, her execution isnāt even remotely as impractical as Chunās SF4 loops. Second, I just donāt care to get involved in that endless fiasco. Itās not worth talking about that without a very clearly defined (i.e. scientific) structure.
Can you name me a tourney where Wesker wasnāt whored out and didnāt appear in a vast majority of teams?
Heās played on the majority of teams because he is the best character in the game and I expect nothing less from the best character in the game. He makes your team better and he makes your opponent change how theyāre going to fight you.
Or do you expect me to believe that if Hsien Ko was played in high numbers that sheād be top 8 and winning a whole bunch of tournies?
So what does SRK think of Jill? I say sheās about high-mid, around where people like Chris, Cap, and Frank are.
However one Jill fanboy on a different board insists that sheās top tier and bodies at least 2/3 of the cast for free.
Could they give reasons? Sure, they probably could. Would they be well informed, accurate reasons? Highly unlikely.
Even J.Wong doesnāt think Wesker is the best in the game so thatās reason enough. J.Wong has seen enough tourneys with people playing Wesker in them and won with characters clearly below Weskerās tier.
Zero was pretty much looking to take over Vanilla with Tron assist the way things were going in Vanilla. The other characters may be a bit harder and require more manual shifting but they have the same or IMO some even more level of BS than Wesker. Zero has a lot of manual shit to account for but he has the hit boxes and general BS (TODās off any hit) where basically if the right person sits on him long enoughā¦people are in a shit ton of trouble.
The only thing Wesker is number 1 at is ease of use. US players are notorious for running the best of the easiest and thatās what Wesker is. You put the macaroni in the microwave with the water, add in the cheese it tastes great. Thatās Wesker and thatās what the US (specifically east coast likes).S tier in ease of use. **Heās MVC2ās team scrub in the form of one character. High ass tier but not necessarily ever going to the best thing the game has to offer. **http://www.youtube.com/ watch?v=PdJ_nAqWgGo
With most fighting games though the easiest to use character usually never ends up having the tools or the cheapness to be the flat out best character. Some technology always rises above.
Doom has trouble actually hitting other characters out of the air if they are laming out up there. Though if heās in a matchup where he can just stay in the air himself while the other characters is restricted to more ground levelā¦heās fine. He has some of the air defense in the game being one of the few characters that can shoot a full screen set of projectiles from the air and then press on a high priority air normal while dashing down so effectively anti airing him or air throwing him is nearly impossible (without getting behind him).
Zero can kill anybody up to 1.1 million health by spending one meter by himself so health doesnāt matter to him. Spend a second meter on anybody who has more health than that (which those characters arenāt that high up the tier list any way). Those combos he uses to kill people with build 2 meters before he even burns one also. The game is only 2 months old and Zero play style wise has changed a lot now that he has all of these new tools like buster cancels and the issue of losing Tron assist that heāll have to overcome. Which I believe with all the new tools he got and still being able to TOD he basically got better in the matchups he somewhat struggle in while still being able to kill everybody in one fucking combo.
Sure thereās some execution involved but once that strong Zero player comes that doesnāt drop his shitā¦itās going to be big problems. Zero just has too many tools that can out prioritize the things that Wolvie likes to do IMO to be hitting Zero regularly unless he has berserker charge + XF turned on. Which even then Zero still has solid tools for laming them out including burning a meter himself for sogenmu which pretty much guarantees you wonāt get touched by that shit.
The great thing about Wesker is that he represents the bare basics of what a character should have in MvC3 as a series to be good: a good ABC chain, a way to combo from air throw and an OTG. Count the number of characters that canāt do half of this shit right and youāll know why he is so good.
Jwong also said Iron Fist was trash and then won a major with him. Even though Jwong say it and it has weight. Doesnāt mean it just overrides the amount of success that Wesker has had. Viscant says the same thing yet people still struggle to beat Wesker. I just think heās been far too dominate to say that heās not the best in the game. If Wesker isnāt the best heās doing a good job or pretending to be.
So it was Zero with tronās assist that was making him ridic in Vanilla ? Or just Zero ? Even with that TOD stuff Zero hasnāt done anything in UMVC3 to warrant him to be the best. Itās nice to have TOD comboās itās a different story to be able to pull them off every time in any situation. I donāt think Zero has the rep or the results to be consider the best.
Same goes with C viper. If youāre the best people will flock to you. If you were high tier in Vanilla and got buffed in UMvC3 you should be dominating especially the early tournies. Eventually the results are going to start piling up and the theory is going to be proven wrong if it hasnāt already.
Iām not too sure if I agree with this. I think people tend to play the best characters to give themselves the best chances of winning. Is there a need to learn those long fancy swag comboās when I can just ABC you and it be just as effective ? If not more effective?
Itās almost been a year and thereās still hasnāt been any tech for dealing with Wesker. I remember back in Vanilla people weāre like Wolverine & Phoenix the best. Then you had people argue that you needed time. Eventually by the end of that gameās life span the only thing that dethroned them was UmvC3. If thereās tech Iād like to see the tech until then Wesker is the best.
You donāt even really need tech for dealing with Wesker. Heās just a basic footsie character with a command grab (he has teleports but without assists the scare factor of those teleports is rather limited). You donāt need tech to deal with that just good spacing. Especially if he doesnāt have an assist (even during his Dark Wesker form) if you can space you can deal with him. Watching J.Wong lame out Noel Brownās Dark Wesker by simply blocking, push blocking and calling Akuma assist with Iron Fist just goes to show that just the most basic of tech can deal with stuff that the average stream monster believes is clearly the best shit in the game.
Wesker clearly ends up dying in matches no less easily than any of the other characters in the S tier sans maybe Strider. Which Strider is up there specifically because his assist fills a major gap for a lot of characters (not being able to deal with aerial movement) and his XF3 anchor abilities are a direct counter to even the best other anchors (including Dark Phoenix).
When Iām talking about Weskerās ease of use Iām not just talkinga about ABCS, BBCS. Itās not that hard to hit confirm in this game with any character really and most other characters just hit confirm with other normals with similar or better effectiveness (X-23 effectively has a plus 12 on block launcher, Dante has a jump cancellable launcher, Iron Man has a flight cancellable launcher etc.). They may not use S to hit confirm but the moves they use to hit confirm into launcher are safe to confirm and lead to more options than mashing on S with Wesker.
What Iām also referring to mainly is that most of his normals are safe on block without doing much work (most everyone can be as safe or more safe than Wesker, it just requires you to actually think) and how like someone else mentioned that he easily self OTGās. Which most characters in the top tier can self OTG any way. The only thing that really brings Wesker up there now for me is that his OTG assist is necessary to extend damage in combos. Itās a terrible assist for the neutral game though and forces you to rely on the āmaybe Iāll rape them maybe Iāll get lamed outā Dark Wesker most of the time while your second character is gimped as hell.
J.Wong pretty much ran a lot of that tourney with Iron Fist using his own skill. If youāre playing a character that you know is not top tierā¦even if you win a major with them if youāre a smart enough player you can tell when itās your skill thatās surpassing the character. Iron Fist is basically a character that becomes top tier IMO if he gets next to you but is very mid tierish anywhere else on the screen and in the long run without vajra or other AA assist that will clearly hurt Iron Fist in the long run. Iām sure J.Wong is aware of that as well and why he isnāt jumping the gun on calling Iron Fist some god character after winning a major with him. We all know J.Wong is capable of making lemonade out of lemons.
Jwong just listed his top 5 (no order) and it had wesker in it.
Anyway, I have a good idea. Why donāt we try twittering or PM some of the top players on who they believe are the top 5-10 characters (if possible their own tierlists). I donāt have twitter but i do know clock, Viscant, Wong, Killerkai, Team Spookey and all them have a twitter or SRK account.
It should be interesting to see what they think.
You donāt really need to because you know itās gonna be : Wesker/Zero/dorm/ and two very good candidates. Really itās a fight for the last two spots. Dante, Strider, Doom, Spencer and Viper are all capable of fitting the two spots, take your pick.
Yeah all of their tier lists have to have Wesker/Zero/Dorm (at minimum 2 of the 3) pretty much free or itās not serious anyway. Wolverine is not top 5 just canāt roll with that. Top 5 most used charactersā¦yes? Top 5ā¦nah he was struggling for top 5 in Vanilla and thatās considering he had an invincible B Slash then.
I personally think Spencer has the capability to be top 5 but there are plenty of people here who brought up reasons why Spencer has too many shortcomings to stay top 5. I think his ability to TOD anybody in the game with the easiest ass looking combos is scary butā¦his neutral game from what people say is not as scary as people make it out to be. Weāll see with Spencer. Heās only like A tier in the consensus tier list but I have him A+ minimum on mine.
Devil Jin you say Wesker is basic simple easy and yet heās still effective. Heās still dominating at a high level. You havenāt been able to prove why he can put up amazing results. Better results than characters you claim to be better than him with way less effort at that.
Yeah Jwong is an amazing player but I donāt believe heās way above other players to the point where he can run trash characters and win majors with them. So either Iron Fist is better than the credit heās getting or everyone is way behind Jwong. Also what strider players are you talking about?
At this point every character has some sort of OTG something but I get what youāre saying. There are a lot of what feel like incomplete characters in this game and usually those characters are pretty bad. Wesker is more or less complete in that he has the tools to deal with most of what heās going to run into. Off in my own little tangential world now I, Interestingly enough, think that the character most similar to Wesker is Dr. Doom who basically has the same retardly safe normals, can combo off of air or ground throws, has similarly safe and generally solid lvl. 1 hypers and an excellent lvl. 3 hyper. IMO the main reason that Wesker > Dr. Doom would be that Samurai Edge assist > Dr. Doom assists and the fact that Wesker has a command grab. Thatās it. Tangent over.
Clockwork says hi.
Heās dominating because the game is early and people still do dumb things against him. You havenāt said anything that proves him to be clear number 1 best in the game. You gotta climb Mount Everest to do that man.
I honestly donāt feel ANYBODY knows who the number one best is in the game. I think the MOST theory you can get into period is trying to claim who is the best number one in the game especially when you account assists and team synergyā¦itās REALLY theory even when bringing up tournament results. I personally donāt think itās good to point a finger at one specific character this early in the game.
Nobody in this thread is making claims for who is number one in the game because thereās just too much crap you have to fight down to prove it. Maybe youāre not convinced that Viper or Zero is S tierā¦maybe youāre not convinced Strider is S tier (heās only A+ in my list I think) butā¦you sure havenāt said anything that proves Wesker is number one and no tourney results prove him to be for sure number one. Especially only 2 months in.** You really have to be reaching for the stars to put a character up as number one and thatās about as theory as it gets. I just donāt like that number one label that players like J.Wong always like to use. Too many variables.**
Even if Wesker does become number one itās a team based game so his effect as number one in the game is more marginal than it would be in a one on one game. Overall thoughā¦THE HARDEST thing to prove is that a character is number one so I canāt really argue anymore with you if you wanna get into the number one stuff because I think itās a useless argument considering the potential of the other characters in a game thatās 2 months old.
Overall Iām not claming ANY of those other characters in the S tier to be BETTER than Wesker (itās just too hard of an argument to fight)** but they certainly arenāt WORSE than Wesker outside of mayyybe one of them.** I just donāt see how any of those characters in the S tier (or even some of the ones in the A+ tier) are actually worse than Wesker.
IF is about mid tier according to Jwong after winning the tourney and I agree.
But these characters have the tech, just not implemented yet outside of I canāt block Marlinpie who once Viper gets started all other pros knows they are fucked.
People are starting to implement the lightning loops now into there combos during tourneys for Zero.
Firebrand not enough people play currently to discover he is always +, in the air, fast and can mix you up so many ways as well as reset not to mention the I am fucked snapback trick with the right team.
Wesker is more popular and easier to use. Dante was being discovered more quickly than other characters in vanilla due to his popularity.
I think asking for the full tier lists is waay more valuable. The reason is because when you ask someone for their Top 5 or Top 10, they just list off a bunch of characters theyāve been seeing lately that are played well or giving them problems.
When you ask someone to put together a full tier list, they canāt forget anyone and have to be more objective.