UMVC3 SRK Tier List/Theory Discussion. (NEW THREAD NOW AVAILABLE)

This comparison always annoys me. Sure, they both have a zipline, but honestly you shouldn’t be trying to play Spider-man like Spencer. Spencer is basically pure rushdown with mediocre mixups and relentless pressure. Spider-man should be playing a lot more lame and patient than Spencer does that’s spidey’s strength as a character.

If anything Zero is more likely to overlap with and outclass Spiderman’s playstyle than Spencer is.

IMO.

I knew the only way the air dash nerf was going to affect Morrigan is if it was going to affect Doom (they both have similar movement issues) so I knew she would be fine. She has the fastest air S in the game (your anti air throw move) and with fireballs + assist gives you plenty way to get in. Plus she has to dash in practically the same way Doom does so I just found it amusing at best when people were saying stuff like that.

I think graphs are nice to look at if you know what to get from it. The graphs being posted may be looking really over complicated if you look at the whole thing, but honestly you can think of it as a two way list to look at it easier. Look up and down for better point characters and just look left and right for team synergy. If you guys hate looking at the graph, you can just make 2 lists for point and team synergy.

In terms of gameplay style yes they are both rushdown characters who need to be a bit patient or they will die in 1 combo. But Spencer is closer IMO and this is why.

The reason they are compared so frequently is not due to their style (rushdown, zone, etc) but their means of attacking and their options. Yes you SHOULD be playing Spencer rushdown and you SHOULD be playing Spidey more patient, but you can do pretty much the same thing with both characters. Its just one character has it easier and is stronger :wink:

Some examples of why they are compared so much: They can go in for a zip at an angle safely because their zips have durability, they can stay in the air for extended periods of time to run away using their zips, they can create insane unblockable setups using proper assists and their ziplines, they can create crazy rushdown situations where hitting them can be near impossible when backed by assists,. They also each have full screen punish supers in Bionc Arm and Maximum Spider although obviously Bionic Arm is the better super. Both have near full screen command grabs using their grapples. Both can OTG using their zips.

its not that Spiderman is a bad character or isn’t unique, its that Spencer can do a lot of what he can, but better and easier with less effort. Its why Spidey is slept on so much in this game right now, but I am seeing him more frequently at tournaments so it looks like people are recognizing what he can do.

TL;DR: You’re either zipping around the screen quickly rushing down with Spencer, or zipping around the screen a bit more conservatively rushing down with Spidey.

Not to mention she has one of the best lame out games going around.

After intensive thinking and countless revisions, I’ve perfected my tier list.

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A few minor things, more comments than criticisms really since I mostly agree with you:
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[]I would push both Viper and Zero lower in support value. Viper being higher than Wesker in support value doesn’t make much sense - he can easily DHC after anyone and wind up powered up for it, or DHC into Rhino Charge pretty safely. And his Samurai Shot is great for OTGs and unblockables, whereas hers are one or the other, and less ideal for both. I see where she has an edge in the crossover counter department, however.
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]I was going to argue about pushing Strider further to the right in support, but then I factored in his DHC synergy and well… yeah I think the spot you have him in makes sense.
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[]I agree with Vergil being placed really high in support value. He turns other characters into TOD characters by DHCing into his Spiral Swords, and that’s scary. Also Rapid Slash assist is pretty solid if you support it, and his DHCs work for anyone for continuing combos or DHCing to safety which is great.
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]I would actually say that Taskmaster has more support value than Hawkeye because of his more universal and damaging DHCs while having comparable assists. I agree with him having slightly worse match-ups, though, since Hawkeye seems to dominate the match-ups he wins.
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[]I would bump Phoenix to the far left side of the grid. Functionally her assists are only used for combo extension, and her unique mechanic actually robs other characters of resources and DHC opportunities.
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]I would actually bump Chris a little further left in support value. His assists are mediocre and he has really poor DHC synergy when you’re DHCing into him. That’s a problem you normally don’t have to worry about when playing him on point, which practically everyone does but Bum. And Bum is nuts (also he’s awesome).
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[]I do think Iron Man has more support value than Chun Li. The reason is because Unibeam is similarly great while solving a more critical problem than Legs. Legs help you stay in, but Unibeam helps you get in in the first place. Gotta get in before you can stay in. And his DHCs are far more universal if a little less damaging. Full screen PC and full screen angled PC are better for more teams in more situations than Puffball.
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[
]I’d also push Nemesis further left in support due to the vulnerability of his assists, but I like the support placements of Shuma, Arthur and Hsien Ko.
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Thor yields the hammer of justice, and don’t forget that. He’s that team captain on point, he don’t need assists because he never relents, and damnit hit me with your inferior a’s, I make you pay.

Nem is vulnerable, but so is Sentinel, and Nem can definitely take a hit, he’s a bulky character. I rate his assist game quite highly, his ground slam results in some of the most damaging mix ups around and his rockets work really well in certain teams in keeping your opponent grounded, it makes it much easier for characters without a strong zoning game to get in.

Now that you guys are talking about Spider-man I can put some input in since I’ve been playing the character since the beginning of MvC3.

As mentioned before Spencer has a faster zip, greater damage output, better normals and more health than Spider-man.

The biggest difference when comparying Spidey to Spencer is that Spidey’s webzip is safe once it makes contact with a surface/enemy. As long as he doesn’t push a button he can zip and block. I’m not a Spencer player, but I’m pretty sure once Spencer is committed to his zip and cannot block once hes going throw the air (correct me if I’m wrong).

Another huge difference comes from his ablity to cancel into his webzip from special moves. This not only gives Spidey an annoying approach
(j.webball XX webzip, but a great mixup aswell. He creates high low mixups with webzip, TK webswing and spiderbite. His ablity to cancel out of spidersting/spiderbite and webswing can make for unpredictable safe block string pressure.

Also, Spidey’s run away game is very good in this game. His ablity to move freely around the top of the screen makes him very good at running out the clock in. Yes, he has to be careful when trying to lame out characters like Hawkeye, Dorm, Dr. Strange and Strider, but this can be countered by using webzip (instead of air dashing) for safer movement.

Spidey outclasses Spencer in mobility and mixups.
Spencer beats him in everything else… =(

Visual chart of the two lists I posted combined.

The Y axis is the character’s strength on point when properly assisted.

The X axis is how much support they bring to a team whether it be damage optimization from hard tag combos, assists that are essential for covering weak spots, assists that can be spammed in neutral to great dominating effect, DHCs, etc.

http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/umvc3/index_customize.html#ya0-trh0bof4bof5iqiwa9a6f3iv4zorfeiu80os7eizdo5pipiu6bgy82a9a15q84f85sa7dof4f3gzaamb8pdab37rdka7bg7oawmbaxd6gxm75xj2k3m1elh7eej0f2f4827pgwm97ef33uf42id93ude5r7ok87qf2km80d6door8qiwbnoq50f4dpd5f3ope2f5h0f4aa-bkf-naChrIsicera-tiPoint%20and%20Support%20value%20chart%20UMvC3-ct999999-c1000000-c2000000-tv999999-th999999-d1Optimized%20point%20game-x110-d2Always%20weak%20on%20point-x210-d3Low%20support%20value-x310-d4High%20support%20value-x410

There are some things that the chart doesn’t quite accurately capture since I tried to not have overlap of images. A lot of the characters with their edges touching are roughly equivalent but you can’t stack things in the Z axis that way. If you have a slight disagreement make sure to check the lists as there are a few things I just couldn’t show accurately without overlap.

It’s a good comparison on the vulnerability, but you get so much more for a successful Sentinel call vs a successful Nemesis call. Blocking drones can be a death wish against some characters due to the sheer amount of mix-ups they can perform while you’re stuck under them. I’d also argue that Sentinel’s Crossover counter -> Hard Drive is very strong in support value. DHCing into Hyper Sentinel Force makes many things safer, and both it and Plasma Storm are pretty strong DHCs for extending combos.

Nemesis doesn’t really have safe crossover counters or DHCs in the same way. When you factor in assists too, that’s when I’d put him below average compared to a character like Sentinel who I’d say is among the best in terms of support.

Trish’s support value is too low o.O

All three of her assist are useful, and Round Harvest has a lot of DHC potential and fun synergy.

Actually, I’ve been reworking my chart to try and make it more clear and accurate, it gets pretty hard because of how crowded the B tier area gets.

But yeah, this is what I’ve got so far.

FlyingVe’s Revised List

-I moved Zero and Viper to the left like you said. And before anyone asks, I do think Viper has more support value than Zero, but only slightly. Zero’s DHC’s are much better, but Vipers assists are better, and in my book, assists trump DHC’s. Also, if your team can actually work a Viper DHC, she does a ton of damage, She is also the best character in the game for raw tag stuff.

-Chris is a bit further to the left, but not much.

-Made Hulk support better. Face it, having Hulk at your back is actually pretty awesome in this game.

-Trish support value raised, but not much. (I put her just to the left of Storm)

-More differentiation and clarity in the high, middle, and low tiers (but none of the others… :slight_smile: ).

I really like this exercise. Despite the fact that KOF did it first, this really fits Marvel a lot better. It gives you a better picture of why a character is or isn’t good, rather than just the blanket statement.

As always, fell free to ask questions, or point out anything I messed up.

I’d put her right around the middle of the road. Low Voltage is pretty poor as a horizontal projectile assist. Slow start-up, she’s vulnerable for a while, not much hit or block stun because all 3 bolts hit at the same time. It travels too fast to let you control an area of the screen while also not being fast enough to be “instant” like a beam. It works for some mix-ups and resets, but there are such better options out there.

Peekaboo/Hopscotch are amazing, but they aren’t essential problem solving assists. No one’s staring at their character thinking “if only I had Peekaboo assist, I could make this character work”. People say that about things like Plasma Beam and Jam Session, not Peekaboo. Your team has to already be full of great independent characters with good assists to take advantage of Peekaboo. It’s a luxury most teams can’t really afford.

Round Harvest DHC is pretty ridiculous though, I agree there for sure. She also has a full screen projectile super which works for most anyone that Round Harvest doesn’t. Her crossover counter canceled into air Max Voltage is surprisingly useful, too.

Is viper’s CC as strong as zero’s though? Also, does support factor in dhcs? If so, I think it’s a pretty big bonus to have a safe way to dhc in unlike viper, but viper has a nice reversal dhc I guess.

Yeah definitely. The only downside to abusing his assists is having to play Hulk in the second or anchor slot which usually means robbing him of the assists he really likes to generate huge combos off things like air throws and command throws :frowning:

On my X Axis, I tried to factor a character’s contribution to the team vs. what they required of it in terms of specific assists and resources in the spots they’re usually played, but that got pretty muddled.

A solid argument, but I think where Nemesis comes into his own (as ultimately, he’s similar to Sentinel) is the damage output. While Sentinels assists and abilities to extend combos really work in his favour as one of the better support characters, Nemesis provides a lot more in terms of damage output. As I stated before as well, his ground bounce can set up some massive combos.

Looking at ranged support, Nemesis rockets given they have a level of armour, a soft knockdown and do a decent chunk of damage are a very strong incentive for your opponent not to jump. Sentinel’s drones in comparison are more of a nuisance than anything, very useful for what they provide for other characters, but less threatening on their own.

Ultimately, with tentacle rape and some of the command grab mix ups Nemesis is capable of, outside of the role of providing support, he’s a more valuable IMO, not in a pure support role, rather as part of a rounded team. In short, I’d rather have Nemesis than Sentinel in a one on one in most cases.

I like the list, the only thing that is really popping out is how high Firebrand is. Doom, Wesker, Dante, Dorm, Magneto, Vergil, Wolverine, Spencer are all better characters IMO. Also I think Strider should get to hang with the big boys in support Value, he has a game changing assist, orbs to DHC into, and an invincible lvl 3 to DHC into, only problem is his lvl 1 isn’t that great but it’s still not terrible to DHC into, especially if you xfactor than teleport right after.

Her CC (TK) is stronger. And yes it does factor in DHC’s, which Zero does have better DHC’s than Viper, but I think they aren’t much better, and Viper edges him out in the other categories. It’s a close race, hence them being right next to each other.

Like I said, I’ll try to explain any of the positions in as much detail as I can muster.