Umvc3 phoenix nerf

Classic Fighting Games Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3
101

Ok, before I say anything I am just going to come out and say it: I am an avid Vanilla MVC3 Phoenix Hater. I see WAY too many of them every match I play and I feel 95% of Phoenix players are complete and utter garbage and pull the wins they accumulate straight out their asses. HOWEVER, after playing some pretty crafty Phoenix players recently and trying her out myself just to see how easy it is to get hits on my opponent, my viewpoint on Phoenix players and Phoenix as a character has changed quite dramatically. She is not wolverine in the sense of pick up and play as it seems when on the other side of the tk fireball. She requires a certain level of finesse and patience to be effective on her own and I can now understand the nervousness of those who have had her snapped in before her meters were full. Most players however don’t work towards that and use the typical superjump into tk fireball 3x into d+H and rinse and repeat. And because of the mobility and speed of certain characters in the roster, along with the fact that 99% of the time people have had gone through hell to finally make it to Phoenix only to be missing that necessary character for that anti-phoenix setup, chucking fireballs is usually more than enough to lame out a win or at least the necessary meters to get to DF mode. However, this Is Phoenix that I am referring to. Dark Phoenix is an entirely different story and solely where the problem with this character lies.

Dark Phoenix is power absolute and in my opinion with all of the downsides to normal phoenix (most notably the low health), I feel the power is warranted; EVEN with the super boost lvl3 X-Factor gives her. All of that is NOT what gives scrubs who rely on Phoenix as opposed to players who have learned to utilize phoenix wins. There are 3 things in my personal opinion that are what Capcom TRULY needed to fix in regards to DF and if these 3 things were adjusted, EVERYTHING else about Phoenix from her INSANE power boost to her teleports and so on would be absolutely fine and warranted.

  1.   Limit her aerial attacks from 3 to 2. NOT 1 then drop to die. That’s not fun nor fair and in all honesty just gives me a free kill on the spot hands down. Getting past her first two fireballs with certain characters isn’t too difficult. I personally main Wesker and with a well timed teleport, I usually always am capable of making it underneath a super-jumped Phoenix. It’s always the 3rd that gets to me either punishing my recovery from the teleport or putting me in blockstun and allowing the phoenix player to d+H me and then go for either mixups or the same routine. By limiting her options in the air from 3 to 2 it makes it so that those who have the ability to get past the two fireballs a chance at nabbing phoenix In some way before she superjumps yet again to repeat the process.  Also now it makes the Phoenix player have to choose whether they want to use up their two moves in fireballs and leave themselves open or 1 fireball to teleport mixup and so on. This would just take a little bit of the laming out spamminess that currently is done.

  2.   Change the properties of her Enhanced Firebirds so that if the opponent is caught by one of them due to her teleports mixups, she cannot full combo them into Super afterwards. This is primarily called for incoming characters being blown away because of teleport and fake teleport traps setups being near impossible to read and react to. The risk/reward is just WAY to high for such a simple setup. It’s like a 75/25 mixup as either way you’re going to get hit or you’ll be chipped  and then thrown into blockstun followed by another mixup if you aren’t killed immediately. It’s just too much reward for something you can’t react to (kind of like berserker slash except better and at no risk to Phoenix.)

  3.   The most important and probably the absolute strongest element of the Dark Phoenix Persona… GET RID OF THE F*CKING FEATHERS!!! They are absolutely unnecessary and gives Phoenix an ENTIRELY unfair safety that no character should be allowed to have. NO character should be able to mash buttons with absolutely no fear of consequence for doing so. If Phoenix wants to mash cr.l/st.l all day, they should absolutely be FULLY susceptible to counter supers and counter specials just like everyone else. People should not be put into 100% block strings with no way to counter the Phoenix player back because she is too far for a command grab (which would get stuffed by the feathers anyway) and surrounded by projectiles in EVERY normal (standing or aerial). She has other tools, traps, and teleports, and overheads that should be having to be used to mixup and open up an opponent not putting them into an inescapable block string and chipping their life away second by second. It’s retarded and probable the worst idea implemented into the enter game. GET RID OF THEM.

If only these changes were made and nothing else, EVERYTHING about Phoenix would be absolutely fine. Let her keep her teleports, her insane power boost, her traps, her invincible super (not a huge fan of it but some lvl 3 CAN go through it so I really can’t complain). Just fix the things that make her stupid in DF mode and everything would be A-OK in my book.

102

Well I’m glad someone took the time to see what devoted Pheonix players go through.

  1. Though I like the 2 air specials its still gonna cause problems because Tk shot>Fly>Tk shot Tk shot.
  2. Why change something that Dark Pheonix needs? Her low health will need some protection and ways for Dark Phoenix to get in without getting hit. It’s hard as it is. Cross ups for this in UMvC3 will be easier to see do to her speed reduction while in XF. The easiest way to figure out what to do is wait for the “fool” and change directions to block. and with the new Air XF no chip.
    3.Why get rid of a tool that protects her low life? I understand why so many people hate them. its because of Lc and Ls spammers. One way to keep the feathers is to take out the L version all together. No more spamming period. The M and H versions can’t be spammed as quickly and can be advance guarded to keep her away easy.
103

all i bothered to read ^ was nerf her 3 aerial non-normals to 2 instead of 1… this is WAY more reasonable, giver her 1 hp for all i give a damn and that would still be reasonable. phoenix NEEDS multiple aerial non-normals to play her pressure game. without pressure, a glass cannon might as well just be a piece of glass poo poo. example: early hard knockdown allows phoenix to fire 1 or 2 tk shots from offscreen which gives you a huge advantage in your next approach, totally throws inexperienced players off when you teleport in from that state also. i also agree with ^^^(super long post) when hes trying to make the difference between noob phoenixes and those of us who really took the time to learn her game and perfect our unique styles using phoenix. she is a really, REALLY fun character to play once youre actually PLAYING her (as opposed to spamming balls and relying on a lvl3x-factor dark phoenix for a hopeful lucky comeback.) “you can use flight to use more than 1 aerial non-normal…” doesnt cut it, cause that limits her teleport approach, single or double, to overhead attacks. cuts her approach in half. which is not good considering a glass cannon archetype is sacrificing a great deal of stamina in exchange for godlike offensive capabilities. the POINT is not “im a scary character but i die fast”, the point is, “play me well and i can dish out hell, play me with noob tactics and i will fall flat on my face”

^^^ @a previous post at the bottom of page 2, there is PLENTY. PLENTY. PLENTY of incentive to use sane phoenix over dark phoenix. theyre just different characters with almost identical move sets… the ground bounce phoenix has with her down+heavy in air gives you a great aerial mixup game when paired with teleport, which you will NEED for people trying to time you out when theyre scared of dark phoenix, or to start up a death-combo on incoming characters. dark phoenix on the other hand, has a lot of wall bounces… and her light traps… LOL.

i guess what the guys who know what theyre talking about are saying is basically the same thing… capcom is nerfing her because of noobs who just rage because they are unable to adjust to different tactics and try different approaches when combating phoenix. its really, really easy to pick off a noob phoenix. so i personally dont understand all the trouble. anyways back to the point, theyre nerfing a great character because of all this QQ, and theyre not even nerfing her in the right ways. phoenix can be perceived as “cheap” to those who dont know how to defend against her noob tactics, (its easy to spam balls, its also easy to dodge them.) but in reality she is so much more than that. there are players who will never know her true potential and thats sad. they all pick dante instead… ew…

EITHER WAY! its not like crying or ranting about her nerfs is going to change capcoms mind. were just discussing how displeased we are with it. hell, if they dont fix her right, nobody is going to pick her, and theyve lost a good character they made. and it will be their fault. i mean, i just made an account for these forums just so i can discuss this with you, so i dont know if this website has any affiliation to capcom at all (it was first on google when i put it in lol) so chances are, capcom isnt even giong to SEE how were taking these previews to the overnerfing of phoenix. so, instead of listing ways you would like to see phoenix nerfed insead of the ways she has been (because nobody who can do anything about it is going to heed them) why dont we discuss what a great character she is in mvc3, and discuss possible new strategies we can use with her in umvc3? but LOL, really, its like theyre snapping her back and putting her in a wheelchair for the next installment. shell be alongside dan, servbot, and roll on the list of “marvel vs capcom series joke characters” and in popularity… no point in using a character youre just going to lose with, right? come on, like we havent seen the videos of her on umvc3… people who have early access probably dont even pick her since they know shes been so over-dramatically nerfed. just look at the videos… shes in like 2 that i could find, and both times she falls flat on her face, and she doesnt even put up a fight. in fact, i dont believe ive seen her do anything but block and die by chip damage that isnt even x-factored.

104

Ya know, feather being removed from Dark Phoenix j2H is a nerf I would very much welcome.

105

Since you haven’t seen any good phoenix action…
Skip to 1:16:34

What do you think?

106

dark phoenix seems the same . BROKEN :rock: . regular phoenix on the other hand looks more technical now. You gotta plan how your gonna enter the battle . Also it seems fireball teleport is still there but you gotta be quick about it. Seems L fireball would be the most reliable fireball now to try teleport mixups

107

@ DarkPhoenix thank you very much for the link… i was very anxious not being able to see with my own eyes phoenix being played (and winning, much less actually doing something) as for my thoughts, i feel like its pretty much what i expected her nerfs to have done to her. a lot more L tk shots as opposed to heavy, and a lot… of naked teleports. as for the failed hard knockdown he tried to use to otg->launch, im actually not sure if thats been nerfed as the commentators suggested, i think thats a timing error… but i could be wrong. @ ^ above post, thats the point of xfactor3 DP. and its really just her fast mixups/high chip factor thats scary, if you can dodge her and guess right and fast enough (cause if she hits you once youre pretty much dead due to all her hit confirms), you can find an opening to go for the deathblow. and when were talking about dark phoenix thats been nerfed in the HP compartment, deathblow > one combo. seriously. as for your observation on regular phoenix… thats the way shes always been. mvc3 is highly execution based, so with a fragile character like phoenix, the key is always in your approach. once you get your combo started, youre dishing out hell - and then theres that pressure thing i mentioned, you use that to stay on top once you have gotten yourself 1 combo.

im still really sad with the 1 aerial non-normal… my phoenix style utilized her offscreen teleport a LOT, so that nerf pretty much brings my phoenix game down by a disgusting amount. im used to using her as point also, which the phoenix rage nerf will make seriously a pain to do since it no longer gives her invincibility frames.

thanks again for the video link… im really hoping that every other phoenix video of umvc3 were just the same scrubs whos best techniques were salty balls and darkphoenix spam. still, the ratio of fail-phoenix to success-phoenix videos that are online right now is frightening. i really need to get my hands on this game asap so i can see for myself just how bad (or not bad…) the nerfs on phoenix really are when i have the controller.

108

So another newly discovered Nerf… Phoenix and Phoenix’s speed is reduced overall…

109

:wtf: Are you sure? Were did you hear this? From the vid I posted recently, Seth Killian said her XF speed was reduced. He also said she can’t take out 3 full health characters anymore due to the XF time changes.

110

Watch the whole tournament Seth also Reported that her overall speed was reduced a fair amount for this game… The hits keep on coming.

111

Yeah after watching the end of the norcal fights thing…it was obvious that after 2 characters were dead Phoenix was pretty much clean out of XF at that point. Luckily one character was already dead. Non XF Dark Phoenix is still a big threat that can kill in one combo and build a ton of meter (at least in Vanilla) so if you get one more good read and dont drop the combo you could definitely kill with non XF DP also.

Hopefully UMVC3 will actually allow us to see some non XF DP in action.

112

Does anybody know if they glitch where Phoenix activates fly and then teleports, but is still flying(able to do air S if you press S, but is also able to crL or crM for example) was removed from ultimate?

113

So far I counted 7 nerfs
-One mid air specials per jump
-Tk shots disappear when Phoenix is hit
-TK shot H has slow start up and recovery
-Lower health
-Phoenix Rage doesn’t have invinciblity anymore
-overall speed is reduced
-Changes to hitstun
With all the new things going on(meter drain, meter steal, godlike new characters, buffed old cast, meter taking longer to build, XF changed) I don’t see why she really needed 5 of those nerfs.
Oh and here’s a kicker, she gets one buff, Tk shot L has faster recovery and startup. Don’t see how thats really gonna help if the some of the new characters can either
1)teleport to avoid it and punish
2)attack from across the screen quickly to stop them, Phoenix needs 1 hit and the TK shot disappears.
We haven’t even seen the exstent of the nerfs in action yet. Good players are gonna exploit her nerfs, especially the Phoenix Rage nerf. The only good thing coming out of this is she won’t be used by every scrubb, noob, or whatever. Less Phoenix’s means less bitching. Hopefully.

114

yeah, I don’t really care about phoenix, I play zero and dante, but I’m going to put phoenix as an anchor, as long as dark phoenix still scares the crap out of everyone, people won’t kill my zero, and phoenix can die instead.

115

TK Overdrive is an awesome assist as well; it beats out a lot of attacks and can nullify projectiles like Akuma’s assist. If overdrive still has soft knockdown properties in umvc3, then consider this:

Phoenix’s overdrive > Akuma’s hurricane kick

116

Another notable nerf… traps also disappear when Phoenix is hit now. the hits keep on coming.

117

Well at least the change log didn’t state her invincibilty is gone on Phoenix Rage so :rock:

118

Unfortunately the Change log does not list everything… They are going to make it so you still have a reason to buy the guide.

119

Yeah different lists list different things and there are things that have been confirmed in play tests but not mentioned in the lists.

120

True, but the Traps were tested, and they stayed, and now capcom says they disappear. So maybe capcom is still tweeking here and there still. I don’t know, but I’m not giving up hope that they are not getting rid of it .

Also I think I know why her health was nerfed. They want you using her healing sphere hyper more. When its on, Phoenix and Dark Phoenix can take some serious punishment. It occasionly works even when a Team cross over hyper occurs and keeps her alive. Her life is practically doubled with it on. So now they want the decision of healing or resurrection more forced.

In Ultimate, she gets 750,000 with healing sphere. If you add Dark Phoenix with healing sphere in she gets another 750,000 which adds up to 1,500,000. But the one drawback is she still has to have someone in the field and needs at least 5 meters still. I haven’t tested what will happen in Ultimate so its a theory. Its gonna be hard to accomplish and be flawed because of constant meter need and lvl3 hypers doing extra damage to Dark Phoenix while also canceling out the healing sphere and opponets XF doing extra damage while not giving the sphere enough time to heal her, but it keeps her in the game longer.