I think people complain about the footdive doing a hard knockdown without a launcher, i dont think anyone complains after that. Still foot dive and pipe are fine. Yes they’re high reward, but if you know how to deal with it you begin to realize it’s your fault you got hit and not a derpy character. You can keep pushing haggar out by advance guarding and doom is unsafe at times with foot dive. Really I feel this game needs very few character nerfs across the board it would be this for me:
Dormammu:
[LIST]
[]Slight decrease block stun on pillar
[/LIST]
Morrigan:
[LIST]
[]No meter gain during :d::d:+:atk::atk:
[/LIST]
Vergil:
[LIST]
[]Slight increase to block stun on :dpf:+:atk::atk: make cross ups harder after first block
[]Alter hitbox of :qcf:+:atk::atk: to prevent random cross up
[]Remove random relaunch opportunity after :qcf:+:atk::atk:
[/LIST]
Wesker:
[LIST]
[]Alter hitbox of :qcf:+:atk::atk: to prevent random cross up
[/LIST]
Zero:
[LIST]
[]Limit 1 air lightning. This means even if zero uses his command ground to air dash, he still only gets 1 lighting before he must touch ground to refresh it. Zero still keeps lightning > buster and buster > lightning, he just can’t go full derp with lightning > buster > lightning and sit on free frames after 2 cross ups with very minimal risk.
[]Hitting Zero kills lightnings hit box.
[*]Lightning does not appear if cancelled before traveling from point A to B
[/LIST]
These are the only things that strike me as retarded to the design of the character. I don’t want to remove strong options of characters, but these are extreme examples of things that seem to go a bit too far at times. As far as X-factor it’s a tricky issue. X-factor is a bad answer to a valid problem, the problem being that losing a character creates a snowball effect as you lose options and some sort of comeback factor to stabilize is needed, it’s a matter of how it’s handled though. I think a valid solution would be this:
X-Factor:
[LIST]
[]no damage increase
[]If activated during block stun it acts as a breaker and puts both characters at neutral with pushback
[]meter gain goes up significantly per level
[]speed buff, chip negation, red health regen stays the same
[*]hit stun decays less
[/LIST]
This gives you more damage potential off extended combos and more meter to burn, but doesn’t directly reward it to individual pokes and etc into death beams and ABC kills. You still have infinites, but they aren’t pulling XF3 damage and require longer reps to burn the clock. You also take away canceling on a block into an unavoidable free kill. The big thing is more meter gain which helps naturally since you tend to want your second and anchor to have meter and this ensures you have a game plan when you need it most. I feel this would’ve been a much better solution as X-factors real issue is simply the damage output in such a small amount of moves. We want X-factor to help even a fight where you don’t have assists, not doom an opponents characters because we’re losing.
If Sentinel’s Frying Pan ( j.:s: ) had a hard knockdown property regardless of having it ground bounce or not, he would have an extremely similar DERP move as Haggar and Hulk.
All three characters’ respective moves hit at a 270 degree angle AND cause a ground bounce. It’s just that Hulk’s and Haggar’s Bounce moves are better in that if either the opponent was bounced or not, the move would gain Hard Knockdown properties.
As for X-Factor, I would say to tone down the damage boost by a large margin on select characters (Vergil, Strider, Dormammu (sort of), Wesker) and reduce the speed boost on others (Zero, Amaterasu, Strider, Wolverine (install super compensates))
Characters with an install super ACTIVE CANNOT X-Factor.
If X-Factor is active, characters cannot activate install super (i.e. powered up states like Sougenmu, Devil Trigger)
Some characters need the damage boosts to kill as fast as possible, but some should not get the damage boosts at all (Vergil, Strider, Firebrand) simply because the latter two are walking mixups, and therefore make it easy to open up your opponent, and therefore should not be able to kill really easy.
I would argue to increase the minimum damage scaling for lots of characters’ specials (Dante, Nova, Sentinel) OR normals (Sentinel, Nova, Nemesis) while decreasing the minimum damage scaling on specials (Zero, Vergil, Viper) and normals (Haggar, Dr. Doom).
As for Dr. Doom, all he would require to fix is to change the properties of his :s: Foot Dive, by decreasing the untechable time AND by eliminating its Dash Cancel property, making a bad foot dive = death.
Morrigan could have her meter gain abilities decreased by at least 50% while in Astral Vision, decrease damage overall on Soul Fist (all versions on hit/block), and prevent assist calls DURING Astral Vision.
Think you all are getting over zealous on big reward moves and not considering their game plan as a whole or answers. Doom foot dive is fine, yes it sucks to see yourself get nailed and wait 2 seconds while he does anything and still combos, but is the move really OP? no. It’s unsafe in a lot of cases and is not that hard to block usually. Moves that should be in question are one’s that have too narrow of an answer such as Zero’s lightning/charge pressure strings that force players to endure several open ended mix ups before they can be allowed to fight back.Simply because a move allows for easy confirms does not make it broke, you have to question how abusable the move is to open you open, and footdive just isn’t on a level that warrants a nerf.
Morrigan definitely needs a nerf…but you can’t shoot her in the foot. Astral should be as strong as it is when active, BUT she needs limits on how often she can keep it up and that’s the issue. The problem is it’s self perpetuating with meter gain, not the fact it’s a very strong tactic.
Sorry for the wall-o’-text I’m about to lay down :<
I could live with S-dive only having hard knockdown on launch, provided a non-launch S-dive still provided enough hitstun to airdash cancel it and continue your combo, similar to H-dive. And to be clear, I wasn’t complaining about S-dive. Quite the contrary, actually; I play Doom and I just wanted to point out that entirely removing the hard knockdown in all situations, even after launch, would be devastating to Doom’s ability to deal damage outside of being tagged in via TAC.
I’m not a huge fan of pipe solely because it has all four of those incredible properties all rolled into one move. Three would be fine. Four, I feel, is a bit excessive. I’ve learned ways to get around it, but that doesn’t change the fact that I think it’s ludicrously powerful for a single command normal. Lab testing awhile back, for my own edification, I discovered that its range is about equivalent to Vergil’s s.S, which, as I recall, is his longest reaching normal as well as one of the longest reaching non-Ghost Rider/Nemesis normals in the game. That in itself is huge, considering the veritable truckloads of salt produced by Vergil’s reach alone. That range also prevents pushblock from buying you anymore than ~1/2 second of breathing room. Then, in the same bout of testing, I decided to see how well pipe fared against invincible moves. Vergil’s level 4 doesn’t get hit by pipe…but even before Haggar hits the ground, he’s able to block it. Completely safe. Then there’s the fact that, even after your ground bounce is used up, it leaves you knocked down long enough for Haggar to dash 2/3 of the screen and hit you with, I shit you not, in the neighborhood of 4 dropkicks, depending on combo length up to that point. Using THC to trigger a hyper after the last dropkick, Haggar is fully capable of ~900k damage for one bar with a painfully simple combo. Stupidly easy ToDs if he has more bar for his assists to join in on the THC. Sure, it can be beat; but so can M Lightning -> Buster -> L Lightning. Everything can be beat, but it doesn’t change the fact that some things are just…dumb.
As far as X-Factor: I feel like guard cancelling is fine, considering it would lead to one dead character at best, which is far less than the potential of the damage increase X-Factor currently offers. Coupled with the fact that it’s only once per match and that both players have the option to use it, I feel that part of X-Factor is fine and plays into strategy and mindgames a lot more than, say…30% speed boosts and 70-100% damage increases, which moreso encourage herp-derp bullshit. I think reduction in hitstun decay is unnecessary if you wanted to keep the speed boost, and I think keeping the current change to minimum damage scaling would be more conducive to a non-retarded comeback mechanic than leaving the potential for more XF infinites (which are already braindead easy for most of the characters that have them, even without reduction in HSD).
Pipe, in my eyes at least, stands above frying pan largely because of the incredible difference in range.
While I think that your ideas for X-Factor could work well for overall balance, I feel like they would likely end up feeling very convoluted, as well as potentially one-sided, in practice. I feel like any change to X-Factor needs to be implemented universally to prevent the risk of something being discovered about this or that character’s X-Factor that makes it inherently better than the rest. It is, after all, supposed to be a universal system mechanic.
Foot Dive…decrease untechable time or remove hard knockdown on non-launch combo S-dives would be the fairest compromise, in my eyes. Removing airdash-cancel brings us back to my earlier point where Doom’s only combo options are Buktooth loops and M&Ms, since all of Doom’s real combos rely on airdash-cancelling one of his Foot Dives. Also, if you reduced untechable time AND removed airdash-cancel, it would literally be impossible to follow up, save for with certain assists. As it stands now, even with the long untechable time, airdash-cancelling is the only way to follow up S-dive.
What makes a top tier character in this game is a broken air C attack. The attacks in the air are broken beyond belief on Spencer, Vergil, Zero and Wesker. And then Dante and Dorm of course. They hit on both sides, have no hit box and are VERY long so the player can freely spam them for either throw or hit. It sucks. Give them hit boxes and reduce the hurt boxes. Or something. Just fix this shit.
Seriously recovery is 11 only. Change to 4 not so big deal. Charge start up is still 37 so any chance of infinite is blown apart.
And non charge is only +0 giving some options but def not infinite worthy.
Shitty hitboxes are a bigger problem for ms kinney anyway
Funny thing is Ankle slice would lead to infinite, 3 frames or so. But they could take out the stagger for that. Doesnt make a difference since OTG doesnt allow for stagger anyway which is what Ankle Slice is only good for.
you’re looking at it wrong and may not be aware that all mirage feints can be cancelled with :s:. :qcf:+:l: is 37 start up, recovery is 11 after 12 active frames, advantage is 30.
move animation = 37 (start up) + 12 (active) + 11 (recovery) = 60 frames
opponent stun animation = 11 (remaining active after hit) + 11 (recovery) + 30 (remaining advantage) = 52 frames (beginning at frame 38 of move)
The earliest cancel point is at frame 38, where we cancel to feint (skipping all our recovery frames and remaining active frames), then immediately cancel the feint itself (takes 2 frames), so we get
52 (opponent stun) - 2 (feint cancel time) = 50 frames of advantage - 37 start up for next move = 13 frames of error
Yeah no…you would have a fucked up infinite right there. MATHS FOOL!
No, I’m looking at it from only cancelling recovery, not active frames.
So recovery would give an advantage of +7 which added to FA of +30 gives us a FA of 37, which gives us a 0 frame link. INFINITE IMPOSSIBLE. The math works out.
Great retort! I actually like his ideas regarding air throws because air throws being completely retarded is the stupidest thing about this game besides TACs. The ideas about the teleports seem good too.
Mind explaining why you think air throws and teleports are OK as is? I’d love to hear somebody defend them!
Top 5 things wrong with UMvC3 IMO:
1.Zero
2.Vergil
3. Air Throws
4. TACs
5. Teleports
If those things were adjusted this game would be 200% better. If anyone thinks I’m wrong I’d love to hear why!
I don’t think those things should be removed, just toned down significantly. I think all those things are kind of badgame shit that make this game worse as a whole.
Like I said in my other post if people think that 1f air throws, TACs, Zero and Vergil being exactly the way they are now are good things for this game I would love to know why.
I think that besides those things UMvC3 is a pretty good game for the type of game it is, but I also think that if those things were adjusted it would be a hell of a lot better for everyone playing.
I don’t think this game needs another way to tag in your other characters. You already have DHCs, TACs, normal tags, and counters. The way TACs work now is better than the system you want because at least you get a bonus for your risk of a chance your opponent ends your combo prematurely. While choosing who you bring in is always great, you already have plenty of avenues to do so. If you want a good change to the TAC system, give the player who is being comboed the chance to juggle if he guesses correctly.
I agree with pushing far enough away to not have a mash H fest, but you can just hit up-back and you’re out of the situation. Most people just rather keep mashing. Also, why freeze assists after an air-tech? That’s an avenue to punish a super jump that shouldn’t be taken away. It’s highly situational but if you super jump and I position myself to air grab, why should I be punished for your choice? If you tech, fine, but you shouldn’t remove my ability to mix you up with an assist if you came that way without covering your landing area. Even if they are both normal jumps, the game is returned to a neutral position so you can choose to attack or defend equally as your opponent.
Characters having different throw distances has always been great for diversity. I don’t mind it the way it is and I don’t think many people really do. With the tech window, we shouldn’t make it easier. It’s wide enough.
This sounds like a personal problem. There’s evidence of many players both great and mediocre being able to deal with teleports. I just don’t understand what is meant by block window for teleports. Do you mean to adjust your blocking when they teleport behind you? I get that you want to add more time from one teleport to another, but that’s a tad silly. If someone is spamming teleports, you should be trained to counter since no teleport is 100% safe.
Regarding the :s: Foot Dive, I would just say to eliminate the Dash Cancel property ON BLOCK. He’s still the normal Ultimate Dr Doom, but it would basically make him less DERP and make the user be less reckless with fishing for Foot Dives. They would have to commit to using the move 100% with X-Factor being the only option to make him safe on Block. This would make his :s: Foot Dive more like character’s air :s: moves.
So yeah the whole reason Niitsuma was taking notes at Evo was like I figured…word is out he’s trying to make another game with all Capcom characters. Which is hopefully a bit harder to be cheap in.
Which I already figured from a long time ago. They wouldn’t wait this long to do something if they wanted to.
** **Lupinko replied to this post on NeoGAF earlier: “Even if they wanted to touch Marvel, which they don’t, they couldn’t as they no longer hold the Marvel licence. It’d be in their best interest to makeI something similar to Capcom Fighting Jam that takes the UMvsC3 engine and replaces the marvel side with Capcom characters (which is rumored to be happening right now).”
Lupinko is the oracle for Capcom games…so most likely gonna happen.
If you eliminated the dash cancel property on block then foot dive becomes an all or nothing move because its like -50 on block without the air dash. I think dooms fine the way he is, people need to stop hitting buttons when underneath him and stop pushblocking footdives(the number of unsafe foot dives I’ve seen get pushblocked makes me very sad). If you actually just sit down and make a conscious effort not to mash buttons when dooms above you you’ll get hit a hell of a lot less.
Honestly other than vergil and zero I don’t think any character in this game needs a nerf. A couple of people still need buffs but Im comfortable with the game the way it is, I used to pray for a sentinel buff but the more I play him and the better I get the less I honestly care. I just wish zero and vergil weren’t so yuck, but even they are a lot more manageable than most top tiers we’ve had in recent years.
I do find it funny though that capcom are considering patching SF 4(which is VERY balanced) and aren’t gonna bother with marvel 3 which is a lot less balanced.