UMVC3 and the "random" controversy

Classic Fighting Games Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3
21

For any of you that know me, you know that I have ragequit this game more times than you can imagine, and yet I still always seem to come back. Knowing this, you’d probably expect me to vouch for the fact that this game is random. But the simple fact of the matter is that you’re never going to get me to say that. Allow me to explain the misconception.

The idea that the game is random comes from online matches against Lariat, or Hulk H, or any style of Vergil or Wesker. Just playing any of these characters will make you question why you even bother. When I thought about stupid mixups a few minutes ago, the first thing that I have frame data for that popped into my mind was actually, as stupid as this sounds, Akuma’s :f::m:. All you OGs will probably call me out on that, but you know that at one point in time, there was a moment when you were playing against a random and you got caught up by Drones and he nailed you with this. Heck, it probably happened more than once. And when you think about it, it kinda seems unfair. Akuma gets next to you while you’re helpless and hits you with this unreactable overhead that leads into one of his signature touch of death combos.

But think about it. Just how unreactable is it?

Akuma’s :f::m: is probably the average startup for most of the stupid mixups people complain about - 21 frames. Looking at that number actually startled me, because I was expecting more like 19 or less. But here’s the fact, and you know I’m gonna DevilJin bold this for emphasis. The average fighting gamer has a reaction time of ~0.25 seconds. That is equal to exactly 15 frames. Does that mean that from when Akuma’s :f::m: starts to when it hits, you should have 6 frames to spare after you react? No. The move has a few unseeable frames during its startup. For argument’s sake, let’s say two. That’s now 17 frames you can react in. Is that all? Nope. Depending on the console, you also have to account for 2-4 frames of input lag. Let’s assume PS3, so that’s 4 frames. What does all this mean?

It means if you have average reactions, there is no room for error. That may seem unfair, but that’s actually how you weed out the good from the great. Little things like this throughout the course of a match add up, and what looked to be random is actually an extreme test of skill. So why does it seem so derpy when you actually face it?

It’s rather simple. The online mode, at the very best, adds 5 to 10 frames of input lag to everything you do. So that means that online, where most of the complainers have experience, the move is truly unreactable even in “smooth” connections. This applies to more moves and scenarios than you can imagine. That, and only that, is why I periodically rage at Marvel. Not because it’s random, not because it’s imbalanced, and not because it’s unfair; but because the vast majority of mixups become, for all practical purposes, unblockable unless you can predict it. While prediction does make you a good player, that’s not actually part of the game. That’s part of online.

TL;DR - Read it. It’s not that long, and it’s from someone who has taken well over a year of thought on the subject to come up with an answer.

22

Marvel is not random. It’s a game of “controlled chaos.”

23

Errr… how can the game be random? Actually, the only time I’d say the game is random is if someone’s button bashing (mashing) and they come out with moves while doing so. Other than that, the only thing I think is random is when characters may fall out of happy birthdays or other obscure stuff like that.

Unless there is an input error or lag lol, all the moves we input are deliberate. So it is not random, but calculated. Heck, even a random cross-up by the phantom dance is a possibility any decent player should come to expect by now. And there are things we could do to eliminate the chances of that happening, such as putting ourselves in a position were the likeliness of a cross-up is reduced. If the ‘random’ cross-up still happens, it was pretty much out of your control anyway. You shouldn’t blame the game for being ‘random’. It’s your fault for getting in that random situation in the first place. Lol.

24

As I said before, a number of top players have said the game is random, including FChamp and Combofiend. Combofiend does not win as much as he probably should and has stated a number of times, it is random…I don’t think it’s just because he’s mad at losing. FChamp has stated that Wong, as much as he wins, should be winning even more but due to the nature of the game, he can get randomed out. You guys like to use “appeal to authority” arguments so there you go.

I also feel like the way the term “random” is being interpreted by some people here isn’t quite the way it was meant to be used. The game is random because of far too many unseeable situations, most of which result in a dead character and leads to another situation on the next character coming in. You can easily have a set of say, 3 matches, where the first player wins with a perfect or blowout, followed by the second player winning with a perfect or blowout. Almost no other game can have results this random. Similarly though, if the player guesses/reacts properly on these mixups and has one character left, they can easily turn things around and reverse ocv. Anything can happen.

It also helps lower level players have a better chance to beat higher level players in this game than practically any other game…I’m not sure how people can even try to dispute this fact. Now just because there exist players that are more consistent, such as FChamp, ChrisG, Chou, etc, doesn’t dispute these facts about the game.

If human reaction speed could be faster, the game wouldn’t be as random…but it really pushes the very limits of human reaction and these hard to react situations occur in a rapid/continuous pace throughout matches. This is why teams like ChrisG’s and Kusoru’s are so good, their structure avoids a lot of these unseeable mixups.

25

Marvel 3 is random when you play online.

Attempts to block Haggar’s Cr.L
Game does not register my blocking
eats a big fat combo

Offline is a whole separate story.

26

For me “random” as a fighting game term basically is a slang for substantial variance in the outcome of the match. Which isn’t the same as the game being a coin flip or rolling a dice. If the game was definition random it would be the best game ever because even the president could be our Evo Champ. It just means that blocking is not very good in this game which is mainly how you’re taught to avoid situations in other games.

The book of blocking means nothing to Marvel. Attacks and throws are the cause of variance in all fighting games and those things are considerably more powerful than most of the defensive tools in this game.

This is simply a game where blocking situations you are put in won’t have a favorable outcome a majority of the time. Which is why the pushblock is so strong in this game because once they get in its all you got and if they’re throwing multi hit moves plus assists it won’t really help too much more. You pretty much don’t ever want to block both an assist and an attack from your opponent because you’re most likely going to get hit soon after.

It pretty much just comes down to making your own rules for the game. Create a team that will keep you in favorable spacing situations rather than blaming the game for not letting your melee based team not win consistently.

You just have to take the game for what it is defensively. A game where projectiles and chicken blocking are for the most part all you have to deal with superman mixups (hence most of the new characters being projectile or extended normal based). Then get hype when someone superman blocks the superman mixups.

In the end the word “random” as definition is not a good word to describe top level competitive play of the game. That’s more or less the same as calling other high variance games like poker random.

Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk 2

27

This game isnt random. Its tetris. mixed with TAC’s.

28

This is what I don’t understand. Why would you report people for their opinion on the game as they watch the game? Heny the whole “COMMENTARY” part of the title of the thread. In no way shape or form is it hindering anyone’s ability to discuss the stream. There’s no posting limit, and Forums are known to go from one topic to the next. You could be discussing the randomness of UMVC3 demonstrated by a TAC-winning match or something and in the next match you could be talking about how strong a player is. For christ’s sake, you can also edit a post to ADD w/e the hell you want in it anyway. In no shape or form is it de-railing a thread if you speak your mind about how random/not random a match/game based on what you saw on a Stream/match.

29

Man every time that i hear someone complaining that a game is random i really want to punch him in his face.
It is specially funny because when i ask them what they mean, it basically turns in a rant on how is easy for them / other players to fuck up because a bad assist call or how easy is to lose a character for one mistake.

Is like they can’t understand the concept of High Risk/High Reward Scenarios that are common on games like the Vs series, specially on UMVC3 due having X-Factor and TOD combos, not to diss on the new generation of players, but i have found that this complaint is more common on them, that come from a more tame (to say the least) game like the SF4 series.

This combined with the “only combos” mentality that is born on the ignorance on how some FG’s work is really annoying for me :/.

30

jwongs team is fucking ass wolveirne storm akuma

you cant win if you dont pick the best team

combofiend does not pick the best team

fchamp? he picks the best team.
chris g? yep.

conclusion: if jwong played magneto missiles or morridoom, he definitely would not lose as much as he does.

again rule number 1 dont believe shit people say. they lose oh yeah games random, they are being bitches they are salty because they lost and are trying to be cool/reputable

then again youre a fucking japanese nut riding fuckhead so i expect this from you

31

It’s a good team, he doesn’t lose because of his team except in some very specific matchups.

Not all people are overwhelmed by their ego, Combofiend isn’t one of those kinds of people.

And from what I gathered from your post, you have a peanut sized brain and can’t formulate thoughts into anything coherent. And what does this have to do with Japan in any way?

32

This thread:

33

I think the random aspect comes from the game’s aethestics and not so much how the game is suppose to function. You have moves with wonky hitboxes that’ll hit from silly angles and lead to a death combo. Characters unexpectedly fall out of special/super when it hits, but it’s something unrelated to HSD; Due to the characters hitbox, they were a few pixels out of the position to take all the hits so they flip out. There are times when after defeating the point character, the next coming fighter will jump in from the opposite side for no reason, ruining the chance for an incoming mixup. Then there’s character specific stuff like Akuma’s dive kick not ground bouncing consistently and PW’s random evidence gimmick. Little stuff happens to drastically shift the match to one side.

34

I don’t remember this one happening for no reason…got any links to it happening unexpectedly?

35

You’re missing an important part of the game though: The part before people are put into a mixup situation.

The game does not begin in an instant mixup situation. Players still have to put in some work to get that first hit and earn the advantage.

I’m pretty sure this is because the player accidentally moved their character to the other side of the dead body, which causes the incoming character to pop out of the other side.

36

Well yeah, but with how good some assists are, as well as some of the character tools, it isn’t that hard. Like it’s safe to say that the majority of a marvel match doesn’t occur at the neutral game, even if that’s the most important thing that prevents you from getting put into those situations.

37

Assists can always be sniped, though. As powerful as some are, there are counters to frequent assist-callers.

I understand how people might call Marvel 3 random for lack of a better word because you’re right: Anything can and does happen in matches. But calling all matches just a bunch of flashy coin flips is taking it too far. You practically hand-waved player consistency aside earlier, any reasons for that?

38

Emil <3

39

Because I wasn’t saying the game was completely random and the skill of the player doesn’t matter at all. Of course it does…just doesn’t matter as much. The gaps in the skill level do not influence the results nearly as much as in other games.

40

you dont even know combofiend rofl u never met him fuckhead