This has been discussed to exhaustion when dwu was announced…
Basically because of the amount of defensive options sf4 has, wakeup setups have evolved to be the norm in agression. I might be taking this too far just to make my point, but even when attacking you’re essentially guessing as much as the defender.
Removing the only viable or “consistent” form of offense and putting the agressor in yet another guessing game of whether he should option select or try and safe jump, essentially making knockdowns meaningless, is something that no SF4 player is very keen of.
The average SF4 player complains much more about oki setups than wakeup options. I mean I’m pretty grateful that offense and defense are both “too good” because nobody is going to admit the game is good, but if people complain about everything equally then that’s a good sign.
It’s hard to say how DWU will work out but its not like anyone is going to say “Sweet Akuma swept me now I can do a reversal.”
Anyone remember how SF4 was like Capcom’s “We’ve gone too far from the path, let’s get this back to it’s SF2 roots” and then as the series went on it more and more resembled an Alpha game.
Now you’ve got double ultras and delayed wakeups and red focus attacks and red focus attack EX cancel crumple combos and DINOSAURS.
Here is the big problem. Every single time up until they added the actual technical message DWU was touted as the indicator would be early enough to indicate that the opponent is using DWU but specifically would not give enough time for the attacker to do another setup. Combofiend himself specifically stated that they’d do something “like cvs2 with the shadows.” Ayano mentioned something about making sure attackers would have time to not commit to an unsafe attack but not enough to change their setup.
The way they ended up implementing it was the easiest to create from a code standpoint (delaying it the moment you hit the ground + having the technical message appear at the moment you delayed it) so they did that. However it is the exact opposite of what Capcom claimed they’d do.
If you look deep enough you’ll find a lot of reused “ideas”. play megaman X5 and take a shot whenever you hear a similar sound or recognize a similar sprite.
here’s a freebie, check out 12’s Super 2 @ 3:55 http://youtu.be/deEjkMpr--c
now compare it to the Decapre’s shiny ultra @ 0:34 seconds http://youtu.be/ppsgERHFbIA
And no, this is not cutting it thin
Because any offensive set-up would turn into a gamble and you’d most likely eat a full punish if you guessed wrong. Reversals would beat anything for free half the time. Not having a decent meterless reversal would make you completely useless in comparison, as would any character that relies on knockdown pressure.
DWU with no indicator would suck. Frankly DWU kind of sucks period but this version of DWU with the indicator so early people can just make DWU setups is probably the 2nd worst option behind DWU with no indicator which will kill all safe jumps and make backdashes/reversals stupidly good. Characters who’d rely on throws (grapplers, frame trap characters, ect) would have no sort of threat behind their throws, it’d be better to never hit a button and simply take the throw if you have any doubts whatsoever. Hell, taking the throw might be an advantage for you because now you are no longer under pressure and the opponent can’t risk attacking you and eating a reversal or having you backdash out.
DWU with the indicator this early sucks because it means there is no point to DWU other than forcing players to memorize EVEN MORE setups and makes the game even more note based on characters with strong set play options and vortexes that can adjust their setups while characters lacking those options still have shitty offensive tools to fall back on to open people up or get big damage. I’d say this one is SLIGHTLY better than no indicator at all, but both are awful.
Thanks for explaining. I can see your point. Personally I’m still glad that they put delayed standing in the game. I realise though that some aren’t happy about it.
That’s a 12f frame kill so he can’t safe jump 4f reversals using that, and that’s only if he can hit the just frame timing because it’s unplinkable. wao is right IMO - it’s probably better to eyeball the situation. However, I’m very curious as to how you think the game should be played? We’ve certainly been through SFIV without oki before - that was Vanilla where everyone did big damage. Even then matches between weaker characters were slow because of how few practical options they had. Post Vanilla, they lost the damage and oki setups became stronger. Now, oki is nerfed for many characters and their damage is still not back to Vanilla status.
What are players doing wrong? Or more specifically, how do players add tension to the gameplay and speed it up?
edit: Going back to Ryu and the safe jump, I know it’s been discussed to death already but suppose every character can now adjust to DWU with an alternate setup. Then doesn’t that make the system pointless and only serve to add to the already convoluted setup game people dislike? wao said that during their testing they’ve found that unblockables are now gone (at least the ones they’ve tested). Isn’t that enough, along with changes to the more problematic oki characters? What purpose does DWU serve if everyone can just adjust to it?
