Just like combofiend. I pick characters solely on design about 80% of the time. The other 20 is how cool there combos look. When Elena becomes top tier I don’t want to hear u only play her because of this. If she is shit tier. Disregard this post.lololol
That elena bitch better have low health with that super D:(I’ve always hated that super…) btw out of randomness i’ve switched back to xbox. i can now tell the slight frame difference -_-
Ultra W will be useless if it remains at 60% damage in the final build. It needs to be 70%. Gief as an example, a character who has high damage ultras and lands them raw.
At 60%, with a fully charged ultra meter, his U1 will cause 312 damage and his U2 270 damage. That’s max charged, raw, with no scaling of any kind. You lose the fear factor of U1 and gain a one-time use 270 damage air-to-air grab that leaves you wide open when whiffed.
At 70% damage, with a fully charged ultra meter, U1 causes 364 damage and U2 causes 315. Still not a huge amount, but you now have the utility of both ultras. You won’t have the fear factor there, but the damage is there to support the utility.
Remember, this is the raw, unscaled damage of a character with high damage ultras. Many characters don’t have such highly damaging ultras or cannot reliably land them raw or create situations where those ultras are feared.
He wasn’t always a Saturday morning cartoon villain. Time was he was just a guy who walked in, fucked your day and left.
How the hell you gonna have a loketests and not have the fifth character
honestly, with capcom, we should take what we can get. 5th character’s most likely going to be disappointing anyway.
Nothing is stopping them from having more loketests after revealing the 5th character, right?
About W Ultra, yeah sure you lose some fear factor, but you should. Since some characters, like Gief, now shut down much more options. 70% is way too much, think how often Gief is going to land an Ultra if he gets both? Like every round probably. 60% is plenty, a lot of Ultras have insane priority and/or completely shut down aspects of an opponent’s game.
How Seth could have worked as a design
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Instead of copying the specials and moves of a bunch of characters (seriously copy/paste gone overboard), most of his specials would be based on the Tandem engine. Himself being able to repel and attract characters.
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Fights in an Armani suit with sunglasses.
60% is plenty?
Let’s take a look at another character, Makoto. She’s a character who many people are saying will use UW for most matchups.
She likes to land U1 from single hits, like axe kick or karakusa. Trouble is, even after 1 hit of scaling, at 60% damage, her U1 causes bnb damage, rendering it useless.
U1 is 480 damage. x.6 it’s 288. Karakusa, U1 then causes 40+.8(288) damage, which is 270 damage. Karakusa, st.HP xx HP.Hayate causes 240 damage.
That’s after one, single hit of scaling. Her U1 is one of the harder hitting ultras in the game, too.
UW needs to be 70%. The question isn’t as simple as raw numbers. You’re not getting twice the opportunity to land an ultra just because you now have two ultras to use. Honda can pick UW and he’ll still never land an ultra, ever.
There’s also a lot to be said about fear factor. At 70% damage, there’s no longer a fear factor. There’s utility, but you’re not going to be making people hesitate nearly as much when your anti-fireball or punish ultra causes ~300 damage at best. It’s a trade-off, but the reward has to be there for the trade-off to be worth it. It’s not worth it if your ultra isn’t even causing bnb damage.
I think it will still be worth it for certain characters. It definitely shouldn’t be superior to picking one ultra, especially since some characters have useless ones or both function almost the same.
Let’s look at Zangief with two ultras. I can’t do any airborn move because of a certain ultra, not even a hurricane kick. Then cause of the other ultra if he gets in close he pretty much gets free damage considering its a 0f grab right? So my character is extremely limited, so much so that it is likely he lands one of these every round. So 250 or whatever the damage is plenty when it is almost free.
With Makoto one ultra can be easily comboed into or is the ultimate mashed reversal ultra, see how many times Haitani got away with it. While the other means I can’t throw a projectile. So no projectiles, Makoto is one of the most monstrous characters upclose, and I have to desperately try to poke her away? Oh…but she can mash the other ultra. So it sux for the opponent.
Ultras often completely eliminate certain options from an opponent, as a well deserved (sarcasm) reward for receiving a lot of damage. With 2 ultras certain characters are going to severely limit other characters essentially massively handicapping them. Unless they rework a lot of characters ultras so all of them are useful and shut down different things, then I’d rather damage for double ultra be as low as possible.
http://www.capcom-unity.com/brasil_unity/blog/2013/11/19/teste-ultra-street-fighter-iv-conosco
Loketest confirmed for Sao Paulo, Brazil on Dec. 8th. XBox360 will be used as platform.
I coulda sworn I already made this point about W ultra
If someone is using double Ultras I think one of these options is good
1.Ultra doesn’t scale by 20%. it should be 10% ( i like this one)
2. Ultra doesn’t scale ( a little overpower for characters who can combo into Ultra)
3. Up damage to 65%
I just thought of something for Juri. If all ultras do 60% damage with double ultra selected, would that mean FSE wouldn’t last as long? Or perhaps all moves do less damage? I know they’ll fuck her up for that one somehow.
It will have the same duration just less damage. If you use double ultra’s you might as well make it a small mission to start focusing more in your gameplan, so you can have your full Ultra by 3/4’s of the round if you are hoping to do any type of decent damage. Same goes for everyone else though, that’s 66% for ya.
I wonder if the stun damage from Balrog’s and Gouken’s U2s is affected by the 60%.
I actually wonder if Makoto’s Ultra 2 is not gonna end up the most damaging Ultra in W Ultra mode.
The follow up will not be scaled 60% I guess / hope.
Any resources on that or is it just what you think will be done?
Merging with the Ultra thread. Please keep Ultra discussion there. Thanks.
If the mechanic is implemented as it is explained on the SRK front page, the new delayed wakeup mechanic is going to be an awful change to the game. It will make the game less fun to watch and less rewarding to play. Now, I understand why people hate the “autopilot” mixups of SF4, but this is just too far. This is a terrible change, for reasons I will talk about in this post.
As an example, let’s talk about Seth’s current (AE 2012) setups after midscreen HP SRK (x3 reps). If the opponent always quick stands, Seth can set up a strong 50/50 between crossup j.hk and fake crossup divekick. It’s a high-damage hit-confirm either way that leads to another mixup. However, he has to jump before the opponent quick stands. If the opponent actually chooses to stay on the ground, however, Seth no longer has time to set up another crossup mixup. He is still guaranteed to be able to do a meaty blockstring, but that [list][]Can be reversaled out of, meaning it is not riskless and has a counter itself, and []It is not as rewarding as the crossup setup, rewarding the defender for correctly anticipating the aggressor’s decisions.[/list]
If Seth has read his opponent’s tendencies, and realizes that he always stays on the ground, he can simply delay his jump and get a guaranteed setup. The way the opponent counters this… is by quick standing! Seth is committing to his guess, and while he can still do the same meaty blockstring pressure, it’s not nearly as terrifying as the crossup shenanigans. Ultimately, quick stand is a great mechanic for a couple reasons:
[list][]It has counters. Not ones that lead to immediate damage, but rather reward you with positional advantage for reading your opponent correctly. Sirlin has a great article about “limited slippery slope.” A good offensive decision can “echo through time” in a fighting game, and that’s a good thing. A snowball effect, with safeguards, makes players feel powerful and removes “randomness” from games. When your anti-airs and footsie tools lead to a tangible benefit, players tend to focus on these things more.
[]It counters braindead play by forcing the opponent to react and adjust. It is a gameplay safeguard that prevents any specific option from becoming a dominant choice. For example, many unblockable setups in SF4 can be escaped either by quickstanding or not. Obviously, the most reliable unblockable setups have been the ones that remove your ability to change your tech timing, but that just highlights how powerful quickstand is for removing options.
[]It is reactable, and does not directly punish the attacker. If I have some sort of anti-Zangief setup that only works when he quick stands, for example, if he doesn’t quick stand, I don’t get hit by a free SPD or anything. I can just backdash or jump away and go back to neutral. The Zangief player gets set back to neutral, and I don’t feel like an idiot for trying to do something moderately aggressive.[/list]
“[Delayed wakeup] would be meaningless if the offensive side could react to it and change their actions. Even if we do add some sort of visual indicator, we’ll make it so you can’t recognize the delay and change your attack in time.”
-Sugiyama
If you can’t react to it, then ultimately any offense you do on wakeup is a huge risk. Even simple offense, like a meaty attack, is a risk potentially. It’s just not worth it. The one time you predict the delayed wakeup, they’re going to wakeup throw or jab and then you will feel like an idiot because you basically gave your opponent wakeup pressure on your own earned knockdown. So people will stop doing meaty attacks. Of course, many people are going to say that it’s a good thing that people are forced to lay off the offense. I know I hate getting thrashed by Akuma and Cammy as much as anyone. But regardless of your character, there are a lot of reasons why this is a bad gameplay decision for SF4:
[list][*]Reversals are simple to input because of large buffer windows and lenient shortcuts. We’ve known this since Vanilla, but it’s still important. Yes, most reversals are going to be riskier with “unsafe” DP FADC’s**. I just want to emphasize that the reason why these highly specific safe jump/crossup setups have evolved is to counter strong defensive tools that already exist in the game.
[*]Backdashes are still extremely strong in AE 2012, even with all the tech designed to stop them. Think about it: just by having a decent backdash, you can force an opponent to respect it by option selecting it. This limits their options severely. A simple jab, jab + sweep OS will nearly push the aggressor out of normal throw range, and the opponent can still try to reversal or focus backdash to beat the option select. It’s impossible to react to many backdashes, and they are easy to buffer on wakeup. Even if you get hit out of the middle of a backdash’s recover, you’re airborn so most characters can’t capitalize for more damage with a ground combo. If the aggressor can no longer rely on option selects to even get a simple blockstring offense going, backdash is going to rear its ugly head again, just like it was OP in Vanilla. It is going to dominate the wakeup game.
[*]People will be able to stay on the ground for longer. Knockdowns in SF4 are already very long compared to other versions of Street Fighter, and basically any other fighting game on the market. It will slow down the pace of the game. People will win rounds by delaying their wakeup for an additional second of “timer scamming.” In addition, it will just mess with the general flow of the game.
[*]Quick standing will still be in the game, which honestly gives the person getting knocked down a lot of options. They can easily control how long their character is invincible. There will be just too many options to even consider any sort of varied, interesting offense.
[*]Throws in SF4 do low damage, are fairly easy to tech, and are the only offensive option many characters have to break defense. The whole counter-hit/throw game of SF4 relies on the throw being a strong option that the opponent fears. The throw is only scary because of the offensive options it grants the aggressor. If an opponent can simply eat a bit of damage and be reset to neutral, many throw mixups will simply cease to exist.
[*]“Just block” is a traditional mantra of Street Fighter. Learning to accept a disadvantageous situation and ride it out is a thrilling thing. It’s fun to interact with the opponent on this level, and it breeds creativity and evolution. My favorite moment of Street Fighter is when I anticipate your opponent’s every decision and dominate them simply by being a brick wall. I feel like the best player alive. The fighting game community has always placed a value on defense. If we didn’t think defense was important, being “Pringles” would never have become a thing. We differentiate ourselves from “scrubs” based on our ability to analyze situations and be patient. If I have learned anything about real life from fighting games, it’s that the hard choice is often the best and most rewarding one. This mechanic, instead, insists that it’s better to remove the hard choice from the player. I cannot call that anything but scrubby. [/list]
I want footsie to matter as much as the next person. There is no person I would rather lose to than an opponent that out-footsies me. I believe the intent of the change was to place a new emphasis on footsies and spacing, but it removes a crucial component of fighting games that has existed for decades because it’s “unfair.” I worry that if we don’t speak up now, we may lose the traditions I love that define our community. I don’t want our games dumbed down. I also want Ultra to succeed, but if I think it’s a bad game, I will not play it, just like I stopped playing SFxT.
I appreciate that Capcom is taking the time to really evaluate what makes the game tick, as well as reach out to the community for the new version of the game. I also understand that I’m basically a nobody in the FGC, but I hope that my arguments at least stir some thought from people. I would love to be proven wrong by other people’s arguments. I am not intrinsically opposed to changing the game drastically. I just want changes to push the game in a positive direction, and I don’t see how this new mechanic does that.
*I hate crossup unblockables as much as you do, because they effectively remove the ability for the opponent to play the game.
**-3 on block, by the way, can only be punished by many characters with a normal throw done with perfect timing. And throws won’t matter much anyway now! Unless you have a 3 frame reversal of your own, in which case the large buffer window works out. Or if you’re Cammy, in which case you backdash after your DP FADC anyway. Or if people start doing focus attack release gimmicks instead of just automatically dashing. Honestly I think this change isn’t going to be as important as people think, and it’s definitely not a “fair” change across the board.
@ Kikuichimonji. I was going to say things always seem bad at first, but then i remembered pandora mode. hopefully the location tests can clear this up