How the hell do you hit the st MP after FADC after hands? Wtf. I can do Gen’s bnbs and I feel like I got a good handle on the character, but holy moly I can’t hit any normals after hands-FADC. I have no problem hitting target combo into hands or gekiro after st MP, but getting the touch after FADC’ing hands just isn’t happening. It’s really causing my game to suffer because my damage output isn’t much of a threat right now. I feel like I’m just trying to slowly chip away at opponents instead of bursting them down and it’s a completely different game from what I’m used to with Boxer.
I’m really really liking him though. I totally get why you guys main this character. Is his updated frame data for Ultra posted up anywhere yet?
Also, I’ve been using crane HK-HK as a jump in and instead of switching to mantis I’ve been doing cr MP to Jyasen (then red focus attack for crumple if an ultra will get me the W or I have a really big lead).
I noticed that Xian usually switches to mantis immediately after jump-ins/cross-ups regardless of whether they hit or not. Can you guys explain why that’s a better option than what I’m doing? Jyasen is pretty safe on block isn’t it?
I have yet to trade with air to air crane U2. I think it’s a really viable option if you can read a jump in. The damage is pretty serious even with Ultra W. I’ve actually had more success hitting a crane U2 in response to a jump in than mantis U2 or crane U1.
The thing with hitting an attack after hands FADC is that it doesn’t provide as much hit stun as other FADCs do, so you have to make it as tight a possible. The trick is to hold forward once the hands are activated and as soon as the 4th hit connects, tap forward+MP+MK. You should instantly dash giving you maximum time to connect the MP after.
I think most of his frame data is the same, so you can refer to the 2012 frame data as reference.
I think Xian, like most Gens, is more comfortable putting pressure while in Mantis after a jumpin. However, I think its possible to do something like Crane crLP, crLP, crMP LP Roll after a jumpin and establish better pressure. Since LP and MP Rolls are +2 on hit and -1 on block, you have a degree of freedom on whether you want to keep going in or bait the opponent in doing something drastic.
Crane U2 has given me uses as an air-to-air, I admit. Obviously it doesnt have the best of hitboxes and no invincibility. so I wouldn’t use it unless you were absolute sure you got them. Otherwise, a handy fireball punish.
Mantis s.mp is +5 on block and it’s a great frame trap starter, s.lp > c.lk and s.lp > s.lp is an airtight blockstring, s.lp is a fairly fast jab (3 frames) and +3 on block, you have a pretty decent kara grab on Mantis…etc
Xian simply prefers to apply pressure on Mantis because Gen’s options are just better when it comes to creating openings and dealing punishment. Any hit and confirm is a free FADC or Super.
Of course this doesn’t mean you should ignore Crane all together. Jyasen being now safe on block can be pretty frustrating for some opponents and EX-Jyasen can also be used to go under projectiles. Just make sure not to limit yourself to a single style.
So no part of Jyasen gives enough hit stun to FADC on hit? I haven’t tested because usually I just let it rock to the end unless I red focus attack for a crumple to Ultra.
And I don’t usually go for the crane cr Jab string after my crane jump in. I just do the crane jump in into cr Strong into Jyasen. The cr Jab links for crane are pretty tight and I just picked Gen up. I’m not comfortable playing around with tight links quite yet because I’m still getting used to changing stances in the middle of normals.
I’m sticking with the st jab out of hands FADC for now. I hit that 9 out of 10 times into target combo to Gekiro. I’ll work on the st strong when I’m more comfortable with the character. Holding forward during hands and just hitting forward + FA for the dash is a lot easier. Thanks BigFool for the tip.
So right now my go to entry is cr strong -> HP hands -> FADC -> st Jab -> target combo -> LK Gekiro. I don’t know how much damage I’m losing out on by not going for the st Strong after the FADC, but considering the fact that I hit st Strong about 1 out of 10 times and the st Jab 9 out of 10, in the long run the damage payoff for the easier link is still better for me.
Yeah, I agree with you. But when I’m looking to do wake-up shenanigans I just go for the EX hands into the sweep. Honestly, I haven’t messed with Oga mix ups at all. For the most part I get either blocked & reversed, I wiff and get punished, or I get the hit and only get one normal in after. It’s not really worth the risk when 2 out of 3 possibilities are bad for me. Gen has pretty crappy defense and his invincible reversal is really risky and requires a bar of meter.
What are good followups after a connected Oga? Do the different angles on Oga change how the opponent pops up? I’m assuming mantis super works, crane super probably too, crane Ultra 1 seems like it would be too slow unless in the corner, mantis Ultra 1 and 2 would probably work if you jump cancel it, and you probably couldn’t get airborne in time to hit crane Ultra 2 unless maybe in the corner. Let me know.
You can FADC Jyasen before the last hit for a combo but if you can only go for a FADC after jump heavy > c.mp > Jyasen it kinda limits your options.
I think you are in the right track with using light attacks instead of s.mp until you get used to the timing. Don’t worry, you’ll be landing s.mp in no time.
Difference in Mantis is that you actually get an option to hit low without putting yourself at - on block. Crane cr.MP xx Roll is good and all, but it’s basically a reset of the situation after block, and it doesn’t catch opponent who may be stand blocking.
You can FADC the 2nd last hit of non-EX rolls and it’ll be +6 on hit/+2 on block, and +8 on hit/+2 on block if you FADC the 2nd last hit of EX rolls. If you FADC the last hit of non-EX LP Roll it’ll be +3 on hit/0 on block.
Just watch out on crouching Elena and crouching Rolento when you’re doing that FADC combo because Mantis st.LP whiffs like 99% of the times when they’re crouching.
Crane U1 will always work if you hit with Oga. Mantis U1 will work too, and you don’t have to do that jump cancel stuff. In order to connect with Crane U2 you have to hit them at a low height.
Different angles in Oga does not change how the opponent floats. When you hit them and how high you hit them dictates how and when Gen recovers.
Have any of you experienced any significant difficulties in the new match ups so far? I’m getting bodied by my friend’s Sakura pretty consistently when I play Gen. His Sakura is free for me if I play anyone else, but I’m struggling with Gen. My friend’s damage output with Sakura is too solid and every touch, if he has meter, turns the game into a 20 second combo exhibition where I’m just trying to block resets. I’m trying to counter poke with st Roundhouse and st Forward to go over her cr Forward, but one mistake and I eat the buffered SRK. Anti airing her j Fierce is a pain too. It’s an uphill battle the whole way through. Even if I have the life lead, all it takes is one touch and she ruins me. I feel like I can manage the Evil Ryu match up better. His damage output is ridiculous, but if you play him and Ryu as alts you’ll have a good idea of what they’re looking for. I think because against Sakura I feel like I have to initiate the action, whereas against Evil Ryu I’m totally fine sitting back and waiting for an opportunity to punish or build meter.
I haven’t really felt like any match ups were horribly bad with Gen, but my exposure to high level play of other characters is kinda limited since I play on PSN and the lag is too much for me to take the game seriously. So I just play when I get a chance to play live.
That match between Tokido and Xian at SEAM was painful to watch. Hopefully Xian watches the tape and figures out what he could’ve done differently.
Sakura is a pain. She can punish max range blocked cr.MP xx hands with MP SRK and get a knockdown, which is actually quite a big factor.
Not getting knocked down, thus, not getting hit by a cr.MK is important in this match. Since it’s almost impossible for you to jump in (cr.HP beats everything with just slightly different timings), you have to slowly walk in. Sometimes walk in -> down back without pressing anything is fine. Your normals still have a longer range than her, so you can avoid her ideal range. You need to use crane cr.HK or air-to-air to hit her out of the air. Trading with her j.HP is fine because you still prevented her from jumping.
Yun feels harder than ever. He has 2 punishes on max range hands on block: LP Lunge punch and EX shoulder. They’re some of the new punishes ppl have on Gen’s hands on block (others are like Makoto’s EX Hayate and Gief’s EX GH even tho he can now do LP GH and stuff like that)
Ah I used to love the back throw ex oga unblockable (thx to whoever posted it here, Ugo?). How does that fair now?
Anyways for the Sakura match up, which I practiced a lot against my mate who was #1 on Xbox live Europe (he beat me most of the time to be fair), strong footsies and safe jumps were te key for me. I’m not sure how it’ll work out now using the same tactics due to dwu. So basically strong footsies is important, as always oh and don’t raw jump, that 4 frame c.hp of hers!!! Plus try to have a plan for some of her set ups eg corner hp srk, back dash, full charge fireball, mix up. Also just pick a way to block most of the time, eg just block back, on get up (maybe not so important with dwu now) as u’ll probably guess wrong a lot with her ambiguous cross ups (I think they nerfed her j.hp a bit at least tho).
However these may have just been techniques against my friend’s style, I didn’t play many other Sakuras.
Actually on reading ur post again, u probably knew all of that, as u said things weren’t so bad withheld using other characters. Hmm, maybe try not to feel like u have to initiate so much? Use whiff punishes?
Most ex Oga visual crossups aren’t crossups, and if I recall correctly some can be blocked both ways. People were constantly blocking mine so I went to training mode to analyze why and that’s when I realised this.
Back throw to ex Oga doesn’t even register as a crossup, but I didn’t test on Sakura in particular.
Maaaaan. Watching that pretty much just reminded me of everything that frustrates me about that match up. The rounds that Xian won were the ones where he either blocked or anti aired all of Sakura’s entries into her long big damage combos. And now with the nerf on Gen’s super and focus attack I really just have to play the match extra solid.
My defense is pretty solid, but I just find her so awkward to play against. Even with my main I just hate playing against her. At least with Boxer I have the opportunity to gain momentum and keep it on my side.
I noticed that with Gen it’s kinda the opposite. If I get a good amount of momentum there isn’t really much I can do to keep intimidating the opponent. It’s ok tho. Different play style and I’m really enjoying learning more about the character.
Update: I switched to going with cr or st Jab after the hands FADC and it’s helped out tremendously. Also I’m working with switching to mantis after hitting my crane air attacks. Getting more and more comfortable with this guy. He’s really fun to play. And I love how his walk speed changes between mantis and crane.
That’s the strategy I’m employing against Sakura. Playing solid footsies and going for damage on whiff punishes. But my problem against her is that even if I’m winning the footsie battle for like 25 seconds straight and get a good life lead all she needs is to hit a good jump in or I make a mistake and whiff and it’s good bye life lead. And Gen isn’t exactly a turn-the-tables kinda character.
I have tested visual ex oga crossup against several characters but now I was referring to the setup off of back throw. Since the other setups I have tested have looked like crossups but – to my disappointment – not worked that way, I kind of gave up on ex Oga altogether.
Update: I tried it again now; my apologies – it does work on Ryu! Not as an unblockable, but as a crossup. Didn’t work on Decapre but works on Ibuki. I’ll try the rest of the cast later unless there is already info on this. I assume there is, but I just haven’t heard about this setup which is weird considering how good it is.
Update 2: Apparently (as per a topic on this forum) it works on the following:
Yes:
Ryu
Ken
Honda
Akuma
Sakura
Oni
Chun Li
Bison
Cammy
Hakan
Yang
Evil Ryu
Guile
Rufus
El Fuerte
I am getting varying results based on timing, though. I got it to work on Ryu and Ibuki (!) with one timing, but not Rufus and Cammy; switched timing and now it works on at least Rufus, but not Ryu … It does still work as a crossup on Sakura! Seems to be an unblockable on Rufus too so far! I didn’t know unblockables like this one couldn’t be crouched. So powerful! Is the timing really strict for getting the unblockable?
The list must have been done with manual inputs because I notice Chun-Li is listed as working while Ibuki is not, and it turns out Chun-Li only visually works if you use a super late timing (one that can most probably be walked out of). More tests: Yep, screw it. Not accurate for actual crossup Ogas. Works for Ryu, Bison, Sakura (unblockable), Rufus (unblockable) but not on Chun-Li, Guile, Cammy (?), Yang or Honda.
Unfortunately I think the come back potential of the match up is probably even worse now for gen, considering the super to ultra nerf. I now am cringing at the thought of playing My Sakura friend again!
Thanks deus for looking into the back throw ex oga setups!!! Look forward to the final results.
Well I guess the cat is well and truly out of the bag on the jump cancel mantis ultra 2! It’s all over the eventhubs front page.
Still I really liked ur use of crane in general in the Manchester tournament Bigfool! U also made me warm a bit to ultra 2, tho I’m still not completely sold on actually using mantis ultra 2 with its grey damage.
Erm Bigfool, why exactly did u do crane standing Hp after red focus?
