Ultra E Honda...First Thoughts?

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
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EDIT 2: Here’s the real, final FINAL changelist. The Honda changes are:

  • Close Standing HP hitbox expanded upward
  • Far Standing HP tip damage increased by 10 (80 → 90)
  • Far standing HK disadvantage on hit increased by 1 frame (-3F → -2F); disadvantage on block decreased by 1 frame (-7F → -6F); hurtbox slightly expanded forward
  • Diagonal Jump MP hurtbox slightly reduced
  • Diagonal Jump MK active frames extended by 1 frame (8F → 9F)
  • EX Sumo Headbutt pushback on block reduced
  • EX Hundred Hand Slap advantage on hit increased by 1F (+4F → +5F); damage reduced by 20 (140 → 120)
  • EX Oicho Throw now throw invincible from frames 1-5
  • Super Head Ram (Super Combo) 1st hit now armor breaks
  • Super Killer Head Ram (UC1) start-up reduced by 1 frame (11F → 10F)
  • Orochi Breaker (UC2) throw range increased by .24 (1.16 → 1.40); input command changed to 720+PPP
  • Ultra Combo W scaling changed from 60% to 75%

Invincible EX Oicho and 1+0 U2 did not make it into the console version, unfortunately. Basically, EX HB is now gonna be punished on block by cr.MKs and sweeps, U2 is way better for punishing stuff and Wultra might actually be good, and EX HHS combos are now viable.

So, now that the final change list is out, I feel like a new thread would be nice to talk about the changes and speculate on their effects until the game’s release.

The big question for me right now is, how punishable is EX Headbutt going to be? We know it lands closer, and is presumably still -8, but we don’t know how close. If most characters can just sweep, that’s not so bad, but if people can land cr.MPs or cr.MKs into combos, that’ll get ugly real fast. I’m envisioning Evil Ryu doing cr.MK into 400 damage and it’s not a pleasant sight. I guess we’ll have to wait until we get footage from Japan to see. One thing that a lot of people forget though is that EX Headbutt is FADCable…it’s actually safe on block if you FADC forward, and you get a 5f safejump if you hold uf during the dash on hit. Spending three meters on a safe reversal seems questionable now though, especially considering the most exciting new change…+5 on EX Hands! Time to rev up those slaps for some lovely 350+ damage combos of our own.

EDIT 1: In case anybody hasn’t heard yet…we now have a much clearer understanding of the changes. U2 is farther-ranged AND 1+0f startup, meaning it is unjumpable like in Super. The EX Headbutt nerf is really bad, Honda basically stays point-blank, so expect damaging punishes once people re-learn the matchup. The tweaks to s.HK and fj.MP are still ambiguous. But, most importantly of all…EX Oicho is fully invincible, which is a HUGE deal. As long as you have EX meter, that means no more standard safejumps, and no more abusing Honda without charge.

I want to talk about Honda’s bad matchups in particular, and how they might change. The universal mechanics will be kind to Honda: slowrise improves Honda’s defense a lot, while it doesn’t really hurt his offense at all, since he relies on Oki pressure the least out of any character in the game; it’s pretty much a strict improvement. SRK FADCs being -5 is obviously great for Honda since he doesn’t have one. Red FADC means even more ways to do huge damage with meter. Although I’m pretty scared of somebody walking into cr.LP range, and using Red FA to absorb all of HHS, building a full ultra meter, and crumpling into an ultra.

Seth is getting big nerfs, yay. Dhalsim got buffs, but mainly to his combos, so this matchup won’t change much, except both characters will do more damage to each other. Will probably be just as bad as it is now. Sagat EX Knee won’t be U2 punishable, which is sad, but we probably want only U1 in that match anyway. He didn’t get far LK cancellability back, which is a relief, and his U1 does less damage, so this matchup shouldn’t get any worse at least. Oni got better electric fireballs and safer ground pounds, easier combos into U2, and a better sweep, so he might be harder to deal with in the neutral game; he’s also a candidate for scary EX HB punishes. The only positive change here is that U2 will punish blocked slashes consistently now.

The change to s.HK means Fei can no longer punish it on block, and shorter LP Rekka means he might not be able to punish LP Headbutt with that either; his command throw and cr.LK also got nerfed, and he could already punish EX HB anyway, so he’s less scary up close than before. This match should be easier. Akuma gets worse recovery on jump back fireball for easier U1s, and slowrise hurts his game a lot. But he’ll probably get good combos if he blocks EX HB. Probably still an improvement overall, since his low life makes EX Hands really scary for him. The Ryu changes don’t seem like they’ll do much, outside of the universal SRK nerf. The Guile and Chun changes don’t look like they’ll change the matchup with Honda.

What do you guys think? It seems like most of Honda’s bad matches will either stay the same or get better. But might there be some new bad matches from other freshly-buffed characters?

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Hi, My name is Daniel and I am a E.Honda player as well, anyways here it goes, The way I see these changes, we are getting better a bit, however that Ex Headbutt nerf is pretty bad, I used the changes we got today from Japan and I put it on the Ono Program, so here it is video that I created showing a combo with 2 bars that can help us in the Guile match-up https://youtube.com/watch?v=-qxDr53bvDo

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I feel like Honda can use his meter now for a wider range of offensive options. He can do sick consistent damage off of a 3 bar HHS xx exrfa combo into ultra 1 and instant corner pressure, or he can use it on ex hands if you have the execution for it.

Regarding his bad matchups I think half of those didn’t really get any better in Honda’s favor.

  • Guile and Chun are near impossible to crack now with dwu (and Guile’s autocorrecting u1).
  • Sagat, Sim and Gouken didn’t get any easier, they just got general small buffs and their fireball games are still intact. They don’t really need to give 2 shits about you using dwu.
  • Fei Long, Ryu and Seth should be easier to deal with in usf4. The delayed wakeup does come in handy here.
  • Evil Ryu, Ken and Akuma are the matchups I’m not sure about. They can really do some nasty punishes vs EX headbutt and are able to do ambiguous crossups that are just annoying to block. Also their damage output out of ambiguous xups is just flat out scary in usf4. But on the other hand, dwu really does help vs them and the nerfs on Akuma hurts his game real bad.
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Hmm. The current list of changes are basically the same as the old ones, with the adition of a minor buff: st Hk on hit is -2 instead of -3. Not great, but I’ll take it.

As for how Honda looks right now: I…like it. The more I think, the more I like it. Sure, a lot of things could be better (Ex hb nerf is…, one of the most requested buff - Oicho not cross up on hit - wasn’t implemented, etc) but overall I think will be improved quite a lot in Ultra.

RFA will help him, prob. giving him a combo into ultra - but this is prob. the same for every character, so whatever. Double Ultra is also whatever - 60% reduction is too much to worth. But DWU is huge for Honda. I think Honda is one of if not the most improved character by this system change. It doesn’t hurt his game almost at all, while helping him a lot (no more safe jumps…yay). And it will also hurt other characters, which helps Honda indirectly.

Regarding his changes - the bad news is Ex Hb nerf. I don’t like it at all, but we’ll have to see how much the nerf is. But with DWU helping our defense, I think we will be ok.

That being said, I just love Ex Hands buff. YESSS!!. I was the one who originally proposed it, and I’m really happy it made it through (also I am very surprised). This is a massive dmg boost for Honda. His meter management will also be much more interesting (now is only Ex Hb), making the character not only better, but more fun to play, too.
U2 range increase is really nice - coupled with input change it should become a strong punish tool. U1 improvement is nice, too. Sure, is not much, but anything helps against fireballs. Jump Mp is very good, but we’ll have to see how significant the improvement is.
St hk being -6 on block is very good (no more punish from Fei/Chun/Yang), and getting 10 dmg to st Hp is nice (could be better, though).
Ex Oicho throw invincible…meh. I’ll have to see which uses it gets. But at least now it does something. It remains to be seen how much cl hp and jump mk buffs matters.

Overall, I like the changes. As for his matchups - is hard to say, but in my opinion:

  • Seth, Akuma, Fei, Cammy and Ibuki matches will be much better. DWU will help Honda a lot here, same as the nerfs to these characters. Fei not being able to punish st hk and maybe Honda punishing rekkas with U2 will improve this match a lot.
  • Chun Li and Dhalsim will be worse. They both improved quite a lot and will be really hard
  • Rose will become a legit bad match.

Anyway, I think Honda will be good in Ultra. It remains to be seen how much, but I think he will be a force.

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lol Rose a bad match? why? that match is free right now. so ez to get in on her. she basically cant throw fireballs against honda.

I see basically no difference to the way i play other than i might consider ex hands combos now and I will now be able to combo into u1 off 3 bars. Oh and I might actually hit my U2s now. Was already using it (poorly) so its just a big help because i whiff it a lot or just mess up the input.

Remains to be seen if its actually 0+1 or if they made it 1+0 until Akimo can confirm. Same with the ST HK hurtbox nerf - we cant trust the eventhub translation.

chun / guile / sim require counterpicks now / got worse, but we dont die free to the rest of the cast now at least. on the bright side our jump MP buff is huge against those 3, same with 1f faster u1. its just those characters got so strong and dat ex headbutt nerf…

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I think Rose match is kinda even in v.2012. It’s true her fireballs are weak, but she still has them, and her normals are really good, she can zone you pretty well with her normals alone. In Ultra Rose got a ton of dmg, her fireballs will be better, and her U1 (which is already good ag Honda) will be buffed. I can see this match becoming bad for Honda

On the other hand, I’m not that scared of Guile. It’s true he got a lot of buffs, but his buffs are not in the area where Honda is struggling. And SB taking counterhit dmg is interesting…

I agree jump Mp buff will help us a lot against sim/guile/Chun. Good stuff

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as much as her u1 kills you, hondas u1 is even worse. she really cant use fireballs to keep you out without her u1 stocked, and then once you get u1 she cant use them anymore. i would have to say right now its 6-4 honda you just cannot stay in the mid range because she will dominate you there. you can play this match very patiently her AA is horible against jump MP. i have never played luffy though so i reserve judgment til i play him.

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all in all i have to just say i hope dwu makes rufus, seth, ibuki easier. i cant stand playing them. i never have had as much problems vs yun and yang as i do vs them. akuma can be fucking hard too. hope that got a bit better. funny thing is my win rate vs akuma is highest online lol so many scrubs playin him. and my loss vs sim is the highest which makes sense. my backup guile shoudl work fairly well wit hthe new honda to at least go even in all matchups.

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If Chun, Guile, and Sim are all that we have to worry about now, my pocket Hakan should do very nicely, haha.

Where are you guys seeing faster U1? The SRK changelist only mentions faster super and longer-reaching U2. I’m also confused about the U2 change, since the wiki frame data has had it listed as 0+1 already for a long time. It punishes Sagat EX Tiger knee right now, which is -1. So, did they make it 1+0 like in Super?

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Super is actually U1. They confused the names - in Japanese U1 is called Super Oni Musou, hence the confusion. But the change says start up reduced from 11 to 10 frames, which is clearly U1 - Combofiend also confirmed this.

As for U2 - yeah, it seems that’s not actually a buff, since U2 is already 0+1. But it was a long time listed as 0+2 on wiki (until was corrected). Regarding 1+0 or 0+1, nobody really knows. Every locktest was different, I guess we’'ll have to wait.

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Wait, they’re actually speeding up U1? Won’t that certainly give Honda more character-specific meterless combos into it from wacky hands extensions? That would be boss, that shit is really fun to do on T Hawk and Fuerte already. Although that might be a bit OP if it actually worked on relevant characters I guess

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You gotcha, hehe. That’s one of the first things I want to try when I put my hands on the game - which characters I can combo into U1.

In the first build, U1 was sped up at 8 fr start up - it was bonkers, you could easily combo into ultra on all cast while crouching, and on 20 chars both crouching and standing. Capcom thought is too strong, so they increase the start to 10 fr. But Hp Hands is +10 on hit, so this means we will still be able to do it, but prob. will be heavily character specific.

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can anyone actually hit a hands combo to u1 with any sort of consistency? interested to hear what people’s inputs look like i tried it for like an hour in training mode and couldnt even get it working.

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I get it pretty consistently offline on Abel and Hawk. I didn’t have the guts to try it online yet, though.

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The Hawk one is not hard, and I find it to actually be really practical since he can be standing or crouching, and it’s not too hard to get a point-blank hit (neutral jump SPDs); the other chars not so much IMO. I don’t think I do anything fancy to input it…I guess the trick is to let the ultra rip pretty much right at the same time as the stray hit landing from the MP hands extension. The hands recover almost immediately, so you gotta be fast. The link doesn’t feel too tight, once you know when it is. It’ll be a 1f wider window in Ultra anyway.

Like EmmanuelB was saying, with 10f U1, we’ll probably get plain old cl.LP xx HP Hands, U1 to combo on really big characters from point blank in Ultra, so I’m definitely gonna keep practising my U1 links. Might work on like, Hakan, standing Abel, standing Juri, crouching Bison, Hugo, etc. It’ll be a one-frame link though. I’ll have to decide if I wanna use my back plink as a second PPP for easier combos to U1, or for jab plinks after EX Hands…with those getting easier due to EX hands +5, I might not need that any more. Hmm

On the other hand, red focus will probably allow for things like cr.LP xx HP Hands xx EX Red FA Cancel, crumple, U1. Although by my calculation, that’ll yield 439 damage with fully-powered U1, and hardly any stun. I’m pretty sure doing three EX hands loops will give around the same damage, but way more stun, and save the ultra meter; the Red FA combo will give time to hit confirm before spending any meter though, if it’s not a punish. You could also consider using the crumple to combo into HP Oicho instead, which would be worth 292 damage and give a knockdown. But that hardly seems worth the meter, especially with slowrise becoming an option.

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can you please describe your inputs? what I did: charge 1, LP HP LP HP MP, mash MP, 646, 3P.

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I do [1], LP HP MP LP MP, mash MP, 646 PPP. Pretty much the same. What are you having trouble with, linking the Ultra? Or getting the hands extension to hit?

On another note, I was doing some math w.r.t. DP FADC forward being -5 in Ultra. Using that number, we can calculate how much disadvantage the DPers will be at if they FADC backdash instead:

  • Akuma Cammy Seth = -12
  • Adon = -13
  • Fei Ken Oni Ryu = -14
  • E Ryu = -15
  • Sagat = -16
    With a 10f startup U1, it seems like it should be possible to use U1 or Super to punish most of these…Akuma and Seth might be too far away to U1. Without any meter, the best punish will probably just be s.HK.

If they do DP, EX Focus cancel, then let the level 1 FA hit immediately, that creates a frame trap, and one that obviously causes a crumple if it works. The gaps on those frame traps should be:

  • Adon = 2
  • Ryu, Seth, Akuma, Oni, Sagat, Cammy, E Ryu = 3
  • Ken, Fei = 4
    So all of these except Ken and Fei Long will beat Honda cr.LP, and those last two characters will trade with it, which still gives them the crumple and a combo. So, be wary of doing cr.LP every time you see a DP cancel. If you block their FA1 and they dash forward, all of these characters are safe, being at -2 or less, except Adon, who is -3 and can be throw-punished.

So what does this mean? I don’t think any of these characters will do DP FADC Forward very often. It’s just the worst option, since at -5 it will always get punished by all characters; it’s only good if the opponent doesn’t block the DP. Instead, they will either do DP xx FA1 xx f.dash, which will be safe on block, and counterhit non-invincible moves, but lose to mashed invincible moves; or they will do DP FADC back, which will beat mashed invincible moves, but be susceptible to punishes if the opponent waits.

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Hey what’s up guys. I hope to be playing Ultra at NCR this weekend. I’ll post up thoughts afterwards since they’ve changed Honda quite a bit from Capcom Cup.

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Nice! thanks for the updates in advance.

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hey hoodaman, can you please check out the ultra 2 and see if its 1+0? Also curious about the ST HK if you notice any difference in it (good or bad)

also please let us know what kind of stuff is punishing EX Headbutt + how good peoples reactions need to be to snag it

i hope you get revenge on snake eyez u got him this time dude

on another note i was just wondering if you guys have any tips for 720s cause im gonna have to start learnin them… is a standing unbuffered 720 possible on a stick even? I saw vangief does them with a pad but i am told he “cheats” he uses the analog stick as well as the dpad somehow to make it happen. i mean its probably 0+1 anyway so the only time im ever gonna use it is as a punish so it probably wont matter about standing 720s… which leads me to another question, is it possible to start the 720 motion from a block position or do you gotta start at forwards?